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[Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

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fiernaq
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[Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by fiernaq »

Answer:
Aereas wrote:#1 is correct. Your assumption that dual-wielding QSDs isn't very awesome is pretty much on point, unless you wanted 30% AC over whatever a shield can offer you. The skill is much better when you're using weapons that have a variety of different statistical effects. There are certainly enough weapons in the game with interesting stats that it's worth considering gaining an additional % of boost over them. Sword & shield on the other hand... just isn't very good. It's not a product of the skill, rather the lackluster overall selection of current shields available. 25% extra BC is laughable when it's 25% of 14 (the highest current BC on any shield?), considering the benefits of one point in dodge. I'm not sure there's an easy way to adjust the numbers to be more attractive, since adding higher BC shields might be unbalancing to the game...although shouldn't there be a legendary shield since there are legendary 1h and 2h weapons? :D
Finally hit another multiple of 4 and I have a skill point to spend. Was reading the description of the "Fighting Style: Dual Wield" skill again and suddenly I wasn't so sure that I understood it correctly. I'll post a few examples and if someone could tell me which one is correct I would greatly appreciate it.

Example 1 (what I now think is correct):
2 points in Fighting Style: Dual Wield, 2 points in Combat Speed, Jewel of Fallhaven equipped, 2 Quick Strike Daggers equipped, 10 AD, 100% Base AC, 40% Base BC. (Stats of JoF = -1 AP attack cost) (Stats of QSD = 3 AP attack cost, +20% AC, -20% BC)
With 12AP and a 2AP attack cost, you get 6 attacks with 10 AD, 140% AC, 0% BC. Max dmg (assuming you hit every time and no DR on enemy) would be 60. Net gain of 40% AC and -40% BC for 2 skill points spent.

Example 2 (the way I initially read the description for FS: DW):
2 points in Fighting Style: Dual Wield, 2 points in Combat Speed, Jewel of Fallhaven equipped, 2 Quick Strike Daggers equipped, 10 AD, 100% Base AC, 40% Base BC. (Stats of JoF = -1 AP attack cost) (Stats of QSD = 3 AP attack cost, +20% AC, -20% BC)
Your stats are still 10 AD, 140% AC, 0% BC but for each attack you swing both weapons meaning that with 12AP and a 2AP attack cost you attack 12 times per round (2AP netting you 2 attacks, one from each weapon). Max dmg (assuming you hit every time and no DR on enemy) would be 120. Net gain of 2x attacks, 40% AC, and -40% BC for 2 skill points spent.

Example 3 (if negative numbers were nullified - something several people have mentioned):
2 points in Fighting Style: Dual Wield, 2 points in Combat Speed, Jewel of Fallhaven equipped, 2 Quick Strike Daggers equipped, 10 AD, 100% Base AC, 40% Base BC. (Stats of JoF = -1 AP attack cost) (Stats of QSD = 3 AP attack cost, +20% AC, -20% BC)
With 12AP and a 2AP attack cost, you get 6 attacks with 10 AD, 140% AC, 40% BC. Max dmg (assuming you hit every time and no DR on enemy) would be 60. Net gain of 40% AC.

Example 4 (Something else entirely. Could I be that wrong about this?)
Describe it please.



When equipping a second weapon, a person will either use both weapons to attack OR they'll use one weapon for offense and one for defense. That's the whole point of equipping a second weapon. With that in mind, equipping 2 QSDs does not seem like such a good idea. The only reason I'm using even one is to get the attack cost down to 2AP. I'd rather not spend 2 skill points for a net gain of 0 total stats (not counting the additional loss of stats from replacing a shield with a second weapon). I was hoping that Example 2 was correct because that seems realistically accurate - you equip a second small dagger so that you can attack twice as much within the same amount of time. As an alternative, I could understand if Example 3 was correct because it is possible to use a second weapon defensively and I could see this nullifying the negative BC that the QSD has.

As a side note, 2 points in Fighting Style: Weapon and Shield doesn't seem to do very much right now either... with a 20% AC on the QSD originally you only gain 5% AC per point spent along with a similar amount of BC (I have the Remgard shield equipped right now for example with 9% BC so I'm guessing that would be a 2% BC increase per point?). You get 12% AC with a single point in Weapon Accuracy and 9% BC with a single point in Dodge. Compared to 2 points in FS: W&S that's 2% AC and 5% BC more. Is there a better weapon & shield combo that works makes FS: W&S more worthwhile or is it just bad atm?
Last edited by fiernaq on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Level: 58, HP: 102, AC: 295%, AD: 46-56, AP: 2/12, BC: 35%, DR: 4
Gold: 75235 | RoLS: 0 RoL: 0 SRoV: 0 VSH: 0
Skills: IF1, Ev1, Ev2, Ev3, CE1, CS1, CS2, Re1, WA1, HH1, Cl1, HH2, DaggerPro1, LightArmorPro1, ShieldPro1, WA2, Cl2
Equipment: Enhanced Combat Helmet, Serpent's Hauberk, Marrowtaint, Quickstrike Dagger, Remgard Shield, Villain's Ring, Villain's Ring, Leather Gloves Of Attack, Enhanced Combat Boots
Last Updated: 02-Dec-2013
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - Explanation

Post by rijackson741 »

+1

I would really like to understand exactly how these skills work. Your example 2 is what I first thought, but I discarded that as too good to be true. Given the last reply from nyktos in the other thread (http://andorstrail.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4160) it seems that what I did conclude about how it worked was wrong anyway! Now I wonder if maybe I have made a very bad choice going after Dual wield skills. Then I looked at the Weapon and shield skill, and came to the same conclusion you did: you spend very valuable skills for not so much gain (in my case, as I read the skill description, with two skill levels my AC would go from 135% to 145%, and my BC would go from 69% to 73%; there is no way I would spend 2 skills for that!).
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
Aereas
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - Confused

Post by Aereas »

#1 is correct. Your assumption that dual-wielding QSDs isn't very awesome is pretty much on point, unless you wanted 30% AC over whatever a shield can offer you. The skill is much better when you're using weapons that have a variety of different statistical effects. There are certainly enough weapons in the game with interesting stats that it's worth considering gaining an additional % of boost over them. Sword & shield on the other hand... just isn't very good. It's not a product of the skill, rather the lackluster overall selection of current shields available. 25% extra BC is laughable when it's 25% of 14 (the highest current BC on any shield?), considering the benefits of one point in dodge. I'm not sure there's an easy way to adjust the numbers to be more attractive, since adding higher BC shields might be unbalancing to the game...although shouldn't there be a legendary shield since there are legendary 1h and 2h weapons? :D
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fiernaq
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - Confused

Post by fiernaq »

Thanks for the info. Guess I'll just steer clear of any of the Fighting Style skills then since none of them do much for my current play style. Likewise, even the Dagger Proficiency skill doesn't look that great beyond the single point in it that you get for free. At 30% of the base 20% AC on the QSD that's only 6% AC per skill point spent and the QSD doesn't have BC or Crit so that's all you get with it.
Level: 58, HP: 102, AC: 295%, AD: 46-56, AP: 2/12, BC: 35%, DR: 4
Gold: 75235 | RoLS: 0 RoL: 0 SRoV: 0 VSH: 0
Skills: IF1, Ev1, Ev2, Ev3, CE1, CS1, CS2, Re1, WA1, HH1, Cl1, HH2, DaggerPro1, LightArmorPro1, ShieldPro1, WA2, Cl2
Equipment: Enhanced Combat Helmet, Serpent's Hauberk, Marrowtaint, Quickstrike Dagger, Remgard Shield, Villain's Ring, Villain's Ring, Leather Gloves Of Attack, Enhanced Combat Boots
Last Updated: 02-Dec-2013
Aereas
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by Aereas »

QSD is certainly a unique playstyle.. you're essentially going barehand (only improved since barehand is strictly worse). You're giving up anything remotely special for that 6th attack, which is a fair trade-off imo.
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fiernaq
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by fiernaq »

Early on that trade-off is pretty bad but I do agree that once you pick up a decent amount of AC and AD the QSD style is incredibly awesome. It allows you to forego all other stats basically. And the reason for choosing QSD over barehanded is because barehanded is not affected by Jewel of Fallhaven or Marrowtaint costs 3 AP even with JoF/Marrow... in other words the only way to get a 2AP attack cost is with the QSD. I was kind of hoping that the Dual Wield skill or the Dagger Proficiency skill would be useful but apparently I should just keep stacking AC and AD (and working my way as quickly as possible towards Cleave 4 :twisted:).
Last edited by fiernaq on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Level: 58, HP: 102, AC: 295%, AD: 46-56, AP: 2/12, BC: 35%, DR: 4
Gold: 75235 | RoLS: 0 RoL: 0 SRoV: 0 VSH: 0
Skills: IF1, Ev1, Ev2, Ev3, CE1, CS1, CS2, Re1, WA1, HH1, Cl1, HH2, DaggerPro1, LightArmorPro1, ShieldPro1, WA2, Cl2
Equipment: Enhanced Combat Helmet, Serpent's Hauberk, Marrowtaint, Quickstrike Dagger, Remgard Shield, Villain's Ring, Villain's Ring, Leather Gloves Of Attack, Enhanced Combat Boots
Last Updated: 02-Dec-2013
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by Sarumar »

fiernaq wrote:Early on that trade-off is pretty bad but I do agree that once you pick up a decent amount of AC and AD the QSD style is incredibly awesome. It allows you to forego all other stats basically. And the reason for choosing QSD over barehanded is because barehanded is not affected by Jewel of Fallhaven or Marrowtaint... in other words the only way to get a 2AP attack cost is with the QSD. I was kind of hoping that the Dual Wield skill or the Dagger Proficiency skill would be useful but apparently I should just keep stacking AC and AD (and working my way as quickly as possible towards Cleave 4 :twisted:).
hmmm .. bace AP cost for barehanded attack is 4, Jof and marrowtaint reduces this to 3.. IMO dual wiels skill with dagger profience is oretty nice one... if you using some other dagger tha qsd..


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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by jlhromeo »

Sarumar wrote: hmmm .. bace AP cost for barehanded attack is 4, Jof and marrowtaint reduces this to 3.. IMO dual wiels skill with dagger profience is oretty nice one... if you using some other dagger tha qsd..


good hunting
Is barehand affected by jof and marrowtaint? Havnt tested myself.
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by Antison »

jlhromeo wrote:
Sarumar wrote: hmmm .. bace AP cost for barehanded attack is 4, Jof and marrowtaint reduces this to 3.. IMO dual wiels skill with dagger profience is oretty nice one... if you using some other dagger tha qsd..


good hunting
Is barehand affected by jof and marrowtaint? Havnt tested myself.
Unarmed attack cost is 4ap, but with either necklace the ap cost is 3.
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fiernaq
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Re: [Q] Dual Wield - [Answered]

Post by fiernaq »

Corrected my earlier post. I knew it was 3 AP minimum, thought that was because JoF/Marrow didn't affect it but if it has a base of 4 AP then yes, those trinkets do work. Doesn't change the intent of the statement though which is that QSD is the only way to get 2 AP attacks.
Level: 58, HP: 102, AC: 295%, AD: 46-56, AP: 2/12, BC: 35%, DR: 4
Gold: 75235 | RoLS: 0 RoL: 0 SRoV: 0 VSH: 0
Skills: IF1, Ev1, Ev2, Ev3, CE1, CS1, CS2, Re1, WA1, HH1, Cl1, HH2, DaggerPro1, LightArmorPro1, ShieldPro1, WA2, Cl2
Equipment: Enhanced Combat Helmet, Serpent's Hauberk, Marrowtaint, Quickstrike Dagger, Remgard Shield, Villain's Ring, Villain's Ring, Leather Gloves Of Attack, Enhanced Combat Boots
Last Updated: 02-Dec-2013
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