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Guide to Picking a Build

A place for general discussion about the content and gameplay of Andor's Trail.
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Duke
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Duke »

Nice new updated Voomie! I really want to try out my blackwater build again.
Lvl78 XP9403007 Gold 248643 AP3 HP139 AC350 AD42-59 BC97 DR1
SP:D MC3 BC CS2 QL4 IF MF EB DW2
Rols1Rol2Elyr1Char1Golf1Shaf0Srov1Vsh1
Ozzy
lvl:47 HP114 AC254 AD27-37 BC112
SP:WA HH CS(2) CL CE IF(2) Reg
Rols1Rol0ElyR0Char2Shaf1Golf1Srov1Vsh1
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rijackson741
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by rijackson741 »

Nice comparator. The Blackwater weapons are incorrect though. You can't equip them without getting Blackwater misery, which raises your attack cost by 1. So the effective attack cost for the daggers is 4, and for the sword is 5.

I also disagree that "If a weapon has either 6, 8, or 10 attack cost, having two skill points in Combat Speed is useless." Some scenarios:

Attack cost is 6, move cost is 6, use cost is 6. With CS2 I can argue that you are freed from the need for JoF. You get 2 attacks per round, or one attack per round and either a chance to flee or use an item (e.g. a potion), and you can pick a different necklace (e.g. Necklace of the Protector for 2DR + 5HP).

Attack cost is 8. With CS2 and JoF, after one hit you have 5AP. That is enough to attempt to flee if you have just one item that lowers move cost. If you have a potion of haste then you would get 14AP, so you could hit twice. Or, even without any item to lower move cost, you could get one attack and either attempt to flee or use an item.

Attack cost is 10. With CS 2 and JoF and a potion of haste, you could get one attack and a chance to flee or use an item.

Note that it's possible to lower your move cost to only 3AP, even without a potion of haste: http://andorstrail.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5566&p=52738, so with CS2 and JoF a weapon with attack cost 10 could leave you with a chance to flee, even without the potion.

For one other scenario, between levels 15 and 30 you can only get CS1. But if you have a 4AP weapon and JoF and an item that lowers move cost to 5AP then you can get two attacks per round and a chance to flee. I actually played that way between levels 15 and 30, wearing the Villain's leather armor.

Combat speed is never useless. It is perhaps less useful with higher attack cost weapons, or perhaps it just has to be used in a different way; i.e. don't think only about the number of attacks per round. Action points are useful for more than just attacks, so unless you play by just standing your ground and bashing something until either it's dead or you are, more is always better.

Edit: You also need to take into account the characters CS. here's my version:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Edit again: The calculations also do not take into account the proficiency or fighting style skills, so for higher level characters they are not accurate.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Voom
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Voom »

Thanks rijackson, I can always count on you to be critical of my contribution. That's a good thing and I appreciate it.

This weapon comparator is only the foundation for further analysis. Don't take it as concrete, which is practicably impossible for AT.

BW Misery has more negative effects than just -1 Attack cost which would affect the char's Avg DPR. These are "exceptions" that need to be considered separately for mainly one reason: BW Misery is negated by the use of a complect of BW equipment, hence, the BW Build. Analyzing a BW weapon individually makes no sense. This is the assumption I make in the comparator.

I made the assumption that JoF or MT takes precedence over CS2. This is my assumption that applies to all weapons equally. Assumptions that deviate from the ones I made are up to the discretion of the user and need to be consider as "exceptions." If you save the excel sheet to your computer you can play with the numbers in which ever way you please. I did say it was not an exact science. ;)

For simplicity's sake, flee, usable items, the switching of equipment during combat, and char level are not considered. I don't have the time to make it that intricately involved. I wouldn't even have a clue how organize all the options available for players. I would fare to say it would be near impossible for me. That's what makes AT a show stopper.

Thank you for the CS addition.

Nevertheless, I am willing to reconsider the BW Misery adjustment. The comparator will soon be redressed with these alterations.
What does your version include?
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by rijackson741 »

BW misery cannot be negated. It does not stack, but there is no way to get rid of it, so the lowest attack cost possible for the daggers is 4, and for the sword 5. True, they should also have a -50% AC debuff in some way as well. I did not take that into account, but probably should have. The BW set gives great BC, but not great DPR.

I wasn't implying that fleeing, using other items etc., should be taken into account in the spreadsheet. As you say, that is not realistically possible. I only questioned your assumption that CS is useless for certain weapons, and therefore you can add 48% to the AC (although I did not make that point explicitly) because the player will not take CS.

In my version I added the character CS, removed the 48% AC buff for weapons with 6, 8, or 10 Attack cost, and changed the attack costs of the BW weapons. Nothing else.

The other thing that can't be realistically taken into account in such calculations is actor effects. The RoL does not look like it's a very good weapon using these calculations, but of course, it is.

Edit: and then of course there are the monsters that are immune to critical hits. CS (or CM) is then effectively zero, which changes the table a lot.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Firefly84
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Firefly84 »

In addition to CS is the skill Cleave. It's most effective when fighting against mobs of 2 or more enemies and can refill your AP to max.
With this skill even a high AP weapon can be used more often in one round.
Negative: you need 3 Skill Points for each of the 3 levels of Cleave.

I use Cleave Lv 1 against the Hithrathils (I think you know what I mean) in combination with ROL and DotSP and ROLS, DW maxed & specification.
Firefly
Lvl: 114, PV: 497, FQ: 63
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 2, HoF: 0, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 4, SRoV: 6, VSH: 3, WMC: 1, GoW: 1, BD: 1
DP: 0, X: 0, M: 1, BoGt: 1, SotA: 0, RofLS: 1
HP: 505, AC: 262, AD: 89-105, AP: 4 each, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 156, DR: 4
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by rijackson741 »

Yes, you are right. The skills really have to be factored in too. I want ether Cleave or Corpse eater as my next main skill. I'll probably go for Cleave, even though I have to first get level 1 in WA. I play low AP weapons, so Cleave could really pay dividends.

Voom's comparison table is very useful though, regardless of other details. It's a basis point for comparing weapons. You have to adjust for all the myriad possibilities in terms of skills, actor effects, etc., but it's a really good starting point.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Voom
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Voom »

That's not what I meant by negated. Maybe I used the wrong word, but what I meant was that the BW set has an abnormally high collective AC that more or less counteracts the -50% AC effect of BW. I think you knew what I meant though.

The CS2 is not useless for the char in general. In fact, like you very clearly mentioned, it might always be useful. But in terms of Weapon Avg DPR, it might be useless for those specific Attack Costs under the given assumptions previously discussed. CS2 is useless when disregarding fleeing, potions, etc. If I am misunderstanding you please help me understand. If you are saying that players will more often use CS2 over JoF/MT, then maybe I think you have a point and might have to change my assumption. If this is so, the focus should continue to be to maximize the DPR of weapons with Attack costs of 6, 8, and 10. The focus is not accommodating the percentage of players that might have their focus be maximizing their AP, not DPR, as it concerns ONLY this comparator. Not their in-game play style.

Whatever the assumptions, they need only to be applied equally to all weapons in this sheet.

Btw, I adjusted WA by 24% AC, not 48%. Two skill points in CS equals two points in WA.

Immunity to criticals and actor conditions would definitely change the tables, but impossible to effectively know how. Player's judgement is needed.
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by rijackson741 »

Voom wrote:Whatever the assumptions, they need only to be applied equally to all weapons in this sheet.
That's what I feel you are not doing :D . It's not so much your assumption that CS2 is useless for certain weapons that I disagree with (OK, it can't be used to increase DPR, although in the case of a 6AD weapon even that is not really true), but that you then use that as a justification to add 24% AC to those weapons. That is a very specific assumption about what a player chooses to do. You can increase your DPR by putting 2 skill points in HH, or 2 in WA, or 1 in each. Since the last option opens the door to cleave, I would argue that's the best road to more DPR (when you are being mobbed, anyway; it's useless otherwise). So I removed the 24%, so that there are no assumptions about what a player will do with skill points.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Voom »

As such, I agree. Thanks for the explanation. I have already adjusted the sheet.
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Re: Guide to Picking a Build

Post by Voom »

Whoever edited the comparator, please explain what you did soon. Otherwise, I will reset it to my final edit with one click and locking it. I have decided that I should be the only one altering the sheet. If you want something changed, let me know and I will consider it. If everyone alters it, it will eventually be a mess. We don't want that. If you want to play with the numbers, you should download the file onto your computer. It is safe since it is google hosting the service.
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