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Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Discussions of the development process of the game.
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nyktos
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by nyktos »

Mino wrote:
nyktos wrote:i am attacking the top ten without Quick Learner...

:twisted:

it's as gratifying as getting a full set without Magic Finder!

8-)

as for the question of balance...
getting criticals half the time (or more) is an oxymoron.
arent they supposed to be kinda rare?

finally, IMO... minimum damage should be left alone.
lady black nailed it.

just some thoughts...
:D
I know the ElyR took you a while, but I'm impressed you got all those L&E items without any points in MF!
And speaking of which, and getting back to the topic, I think the 2 Legendary weapons are a good temptation away from the DotSP which is the big critical hit weapon of choice.

In fact, since I've left the Iqhan caves and am instead back at my old stomping grounds near BWM, I've switched back to the ElyR, which gets a nice boost from Cleave. And as you mentioned before ROL with speed potion has the same benefit.

I think another reason critical hits are so much more frequent in this version isn't just the More Criticals skill, its also the new equipment. In v0.6.8, the only item that increased critical chance was the RoLS which was very time consuming to get. Then in v0.6.9, we also saw the Ring of Strike and Ring of Vicious Strike. But now we have the Polished Ring of Backstabbing, Villain's Leather Armor, Troublemaker's gloves, and Necklace of Strike. If you equip all of those you get 26% cc, on top of whatever weapon you use. If that weapon is the DotSP (20% cc) you already have 46%, even without the More Criticals skill. Even assuming you don't switch out the Jewel of Fallhaven, you still have 41%, so almost half your hits are critical.

I'm not saying don't cap the More Criticals skill, but I think offering more weapons (not just L&E ones) that offer other valuable or even just fun elements (inflicting conditions) might get people to not just stick with a critical hit character.


exactly, all i need is a quick gear change to have access to incredible criticals
i haven't spent any skill points (this build) on criticals... and they are STILL brutal!

remember the "old" venomous dagger?
i daresay the DotSP might deserve to get nerfed (weakend for the sake of balance)
"Embrace the Shadow"

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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by Antison »

Mino wrote:My opinion might be biased since I've used a few Skill Points on Quick Learner (8 so far), but I don't think it unbalances the game unless you want it to. The only difference from grinding and leveling up normally is that it slightly speeds up the process, but you still have to spend the time grinding either way. So if you don't want to become too strong, its still up to each player to just not to level up too much.

If someone with QL 10 spends 2 hours grinding, and someone with no QL spends 4 hours grinding, either way they're going to level up about the same (math might be wrong, but its just an example). And choosing QL means sacrificing a different skill that might be more beneficial immediately. The high score list isn't a serious thing with any kind of prize, it was just meant for fun, so I see no reason to remove the board either. I like looking at it not just for the levels, but also to see what everyone has used their level ups for (AD, AC, BC), and how many L&E items they have.

As far as being invulnerable, the only way QL would help there is for leveling up BC, and maybe HP, but I suspect a lot of the high HP we're seeing is from multiple levels of Increased Fortitude.

Basically, I'm not too concerned with balance because its a 1-player game, so if anyone doesn't want the game to be too easy, its up to them to limit themselves.
I agree 100%! +1
nyktos wrote: as for the question of balance...
getting criticals half the time (or more) is an oxymoron.
arent they supposed to be kinda rare?

finally, IMO... minimum damage should be left alone.
lady black nailed it.

just some thoughts...
:D
I agree 100%! +1
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by Treadmore »

nyktos wrote:
as for the question of balance...
getting criticals half the time (or more) is an oxymoron.
arent they supposed to be kinda rare
I don't know what was intended but I thought of criticals as being more of a sign of skill - 'knowing' where and how to hit to achieve most damage.

So I don't see the probability being high as a problem. However, I do think it would be good to introduce an element of 'skill' for the player in respect of weapon choice for particular opponents (as has been said earlier).
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by lady black »

If having 10 points in QL and going through levels very fast, gaining HP at every level because of IF points, and reaching 500HP does not unbalance the game because it is a one-person game, then I do not see why 100% criticals x 5 unbalances the game and must be capped. It is still a 1-person game, whether we are talking about AL or MC-BC! What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
If there is a fundamental difference here, I would appreciate an explanation of it, because I do not see one.
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by nyktos »

what comes to mind, in my head anyway...
is the challenge of balancing the game out when dealing with high level characters
when you spend 10 points in anything, it is going to be "powerful"

the problem is - no one has ever pushed these skills to the limit in this game
and now boundaries must be set...
to maintain balance, challenge & continuity.

some skills need Caps
some need harder (or easier) Prerequisites
others need to be boosted in strength, or powered down

so characters dont get out of control / overpowered,
and the game can still challenge players at high level and in the late stages of the game.

bear in mind, the changes should be made to maximize the New Game, when its done
not cater to our test characters, no matter how much time we have invested

i hope that doesnt come across harsh - i just mean things might change
and the final version may "feel" very different than it did in 6.8 or 6.9

just some thoughts... 8-)
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by Mino »

I agree with Nyktos that the game should be made with the mindset of a complete game for someone just starting it, when the final product is done. And in a way, we're also testing out what the limits of the game are.

I think a lot of us have a different view of the game than someone who just downloaded it since we've been playing for so long, and when the Skill Points were first introduced, we already had 10-15 (or more) to spend right after the last update, and any minimum level requirements were already fulfilled.

For the example of critical hits, someone new might be able to get a 46% critical chance with the right equipment, with a 3x multiplier, but their base damage might only be 5-10, depending on what they've chosen to level up. It seems more powerful for some of us because our base AD is a lot higher after playing for so long.

Its probably also different starting out, and getting those Skill Points one at a time, and having to decide what to use it on, or get to a level where its possible to use (like Increased Fortitude, or Combat Speed).

As far as if someone wants to have 100% critical chance, it honestly doesn't bother me. Its not something I would go for myself but if someone else wants to, it doesn't affect my game in any way. And if I had gone that high, and decided it wasn't fun anymore, I could just switch to a non critical weapon.
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by Antison »

lady black wrote:If having 10 points in QL and going through levels very fast, gaining HP at every level because of IF points, and reaching 500HP does not unbalance the game because it is a one-person game, then I do not see why 100% criticals x 5 unbalances the game and must be capped. It is still a 1-person game, whether we are talking about AL or MC-BC! What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
If there is a fundamental difference here, I would appreciate an explanation of it, because I do not see one.
I am in favor of capping the increased fortitude skill too and I believe i stated just that in other threads. In fact, I have a self imposed cap on this skill at 2.

I agree with Nyktos 100%.
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by der_Hosenwyrm »

Personally, I don't like the idea of trying to make all skills equal, or making all choices have approximately equivalent outcomes.

I think smart choices should be rewarded, and careless choices should be punished.

I think some skills should be way better than others. I think some choices should have lasting negative repercussions.

Otherwise, why make any effort to "choose wisely"?
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by qasur »

der_Hosenwyrm wrote:Personally, I don't like the idea of trying to make all skills equal, or making all choices have approximately equivalent outcomes.

I think smart choices should be rewarded, and careless choices should be punished.

I think some skills should be way better than others. I think some choices should have lasting negative repercussions.

Otherwise, why make any effort to "choose wisely"?
It's important to make the skills balances or otherwise you will always be making the "wrong choice" when choosing the weaker skill to upgrade. And while it's a "1-player game" or whatever, why hurt yourself on purpose? It's perfectly fine to want to use all of the +1 AP gear and not take the extra-AP skill or whatever, but that's a choice, and if it creates a sub-optimal character, then fine. However, there's no reason to not balance the skills at least. It is a game and you want to at least say there are *many* good builds to create and play rather than one ultimate version. Oskar definitely wanted some of the skills to be open-ended so that players could go 100% "that direction" with them and build a character that why (while forfeiting not taking up other skills else-where).

@Capping skills: I agree that skills should have some sort of cap, but I think it should be based more on your over-all level vs. level of what you're fighting. However, I think that would be to hard to implement in this game (idk though, maybe possible?) If not that, then try something else that isn't strictly "limit X", except for some skills that should be 1-point max (like the +1 HP/level skill).

As far as Quick Learner is concerned, I raised that question when it was created (and I even think I told Oskar to reduce the amount of EXP gained by half from the skill because it was too much at first). People say QL is worthless because you're "giving up" other skills. This could be true until you get to the point where you're getting 2x EXP. You'll be leveling in half the time as other characters (which can be extremely beneficial when you get to the *really* high levels needing millions of EXP), and once you're at 2x, you can begin to take those other skills. The only *early* skill I'd take is the +1 HP/level skill though. Seems perfect when you're leveling quickly. But is QL an issue? I think not. It fits with exactly what Oskar wanted: a different build of character that is neither too weak or too strong. QL is not a better character than others but it's also not a weaker character either. It's just a different one, and that's great. I would say that the other skills get tweaked/modified to fit more in line with what QL offers; the ability to be good, but not weak or too strong.
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Re: Critical Hit Chance & Critical Hit Multiplier changes

Post by Mino »

qasur wrote:As far as Quick Learner is concerned, I raised that question when it was created (and I even think I told Oskar to reduce the amount of EXP gained by half from the skill because it was too much at first). People say QL is worthless because you're "giving up" other skills. This could be true until you get to the point where you're getting 2x EXP. You'll be leveling in half the time as other characters (which can be extremely beneficial when you get to the *really* high levels needing millions of EXP), and once you're at 2x, you can begin to take those other skills. The only *early* skill I'd take is the +1 HP/level skill though. Seems perfect when you're leveling quickly. But is QL an issue? I think not. It fits with exactly what Oskar wanted: a different build of character that is neither too weak or too strong. QL is not a better character than others but it's also not a weaker character either. It's just a different one, and that's great. I would say that the other skills get tweaked/modified to fit more in line with what QL offers; the ability to be good, but not weak or too strong.
Getting 2x the EXP would mean level 20 on QL, and even though I was thinking of trying to get there at one point, its just too boring compared to some of the other skills you could get instead (Cleave has been great and essentially requires 3 skill points, I want to get some Evasion going too, and I'm also rethinking Corpse Eater). I just want to get to level 10 for the 1.5x rate before the next update, so there's a bigger payoff on future monsters and bosses, because at higher levels, even with QL it can get tedious getting to the next level up.
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

QL 25, MF 3

12/26/18
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