avoiding negative conditions - evasion vs resistances

[nessi]

I've hugely enjoyed the game so far! After having played around a bit I'm now thinking of a serious build, focusing on high AD and AC. However the tougher monsters are still not reliably killed in one round (around level 40), so can hit back and cause some nasty conditions which more or less force me to wait until they are worn off. So I thought about ways of dealing with this inconvenience:

Some of the character conditions from monsters are very annoying to outright nasty. To avoid them one could either invest in the appropriate resistances or not get hit. The resistances seem really underpowered here: if you have invested one skill level and the mob usually has a 20% chance, it will now have an 18% chance (if I read the code correctly). With 4 skill levels invested it would still be 12%. Compare that to investing 4 skill levels into Evasion: that will guarantee that one can always flee successfully (again modulo me reading the code correctly); with bare hands and the jewel you can thus do 2attacks and flee with no chance of getting hit.

Finally the descriptions in-game both talk about a 5% (resp 10%) reduction: that one is percentage points (so really a 25% reduction) and the other is relative to the base chance is not obvious and could be described as a bug.

Have I overlooked anything or what is the standard way of deal in with mobs causing bad character conditions?

[nether]

Welcome to the forums nessi, glad you're having fun with AT (:


Usually I just tank through these conditions, I find the only real condition worth waiting for is stunned, because that can get you killed quick if you don't wait. An AC of about 250% or around there usually suffices for all conditions dealing with attack chance and an AD of 30ish will let you reliably attack through all DR in the game as of now and not have to wait for actor conditions that affect AD. I've never bothered with evasion so I wouldn't know about that, but I hear its pretty good. There's nothing I've ever had to really run away from in this game at the appropriate levels.

A block chance around\over 100% can also help a great deal I hear with enemies getting less hits in and all that.

I believe the resistances are getting a buff in the next version, so stay tuned for that. Otherwise, they are NOT worth taking, and I repeat, not worth taking whatsoever. Your skill points are very valuable in this game, and resistances are something that you can just suffer through for right now IMO

Unless actor conditions get worse.... then I could see the need.

BTW: Are you still going barehanded? What level are you? There are a couple of weapons you can pick up that are slightly better at higher levels than fists I think.

[nessi]

Usually I just tank through these conditions, I find the only real condition worth waiting for is stunned, because that can get you killed quick if you don't wait. An AC of about 250% or around there usually suffices for all conditions dealing with attack chance and an AD of 30ish will let you reliably attack through all DR in the game as of now and not have to wait for actor conditions that affect AD. I've never bothered with evasion so I wouldn't know about that, but I hear its pretty good. There's nothing I've ever had to really run away from in this game at the appropriate levels.

A block chance around\over 100% can also help a great deal I hear with enemies getting less hits in and all that.

Well, but that is no level 30-40 character anymore, or is it? Of course, once you've reached level 80+, I guess that the game in its current state won't really pose a challenge.

BTW: Are you still going barehanded? What level are you? There are a couple of weapons you can pick up that are slightly better at higher levels than fists I think.

I'm level 18 atm and started grinding for RoLS (but it's kind of boring).
I did buy and equip the quickstrike dagger, but can't see a better weapon: against easy mobs it doesn't matter what you equip, against harder ones (high hp/dr/block) even an ap=4 weapon (effective ap=3) gives either one attack, flee or 3 attacks (4 with 2 skillpoints in combat speed). With ap=3 (effective ap=2) you get 2 attacks, flee or 5 attacks (6 with combat speed), so roughly 1.5 times as many. I can't see a weapon making up that difference, but would be happy if I'm proven wrong. I haven't thought about CR: it seems somewhat chancy and, to be effective, would use lots of skillpoints I guess.

[nether]

It's possible to reach all of those stats (except the BC, has to be done afterwards really) at around level 32. SirGrindsAlot has a great post that kind of outlines what I'm trying to explain here. There is also some good info in there to read about as well. Even at level 17 (for my character) I was having no trouble in Prim\BWM whatsoever because I had invested most of my level ups into AD and put my skill points into AC. You don't have to do what I did, but I'm telling you, when you hit those magic numbers, from my experience; your golden

After that I simply just leveled up at BWM til around 26-30 and did Remgard, the only tough thing being the spider caves (which really wasn't tough, I was just ill prepared potion wise). After I hit level 32+, everything was easily killable.

And I think your better off using the balanced steel sword (top of the tower in the crossroads guard house) rather than the QSD. the BSS gives some of the highest AC in the game, has good damage, and only uses 4AP. Even fatigued you are still getting your three hits in (if you picked up the JoF. A wise man once said, better 5 attacks where 3-4 hit rather than 6 attacks where 3-4 miss.

[Mino]

There are also items that can reduce your move cost, allowing you to hit a little more each turn before attempting to flee.

Two of them can be purchased: Villains leather armor & Cowards boots.
The other two are the newly added Extraordinary items.

If you have 2 of those items equipped you can attack until you have 4 AP left before trying to flee. Once you have combat speed level 2 and Quickstrike dagger or barehanded that's 4 attacks before you have to try fleeing. Or you can stock up on speed potions until then.

[Pyrizzle]

I used to not be a big fan of Evasion but it has won me over while i started my Hard Hitter build (high AC, AD, & Evasion)

Being able to get the first hit in more often than not does save you a lot of money/time, expecially during gameplay early on.

[nessi]

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll definitely get the AP-movement reducing gear!
Some comments based on my understanding of the current game mechanics: am I right that every percentage point improvement in AC will lead to less than a percentage point improvement in actual hit chance? If that is the case then:
the BCC has AC 32, the QSD AC 20, so an improvement of 12 percentage points (and yes, it doesn't decrease BC but I'm hoping to 'never' be hit anyway because I kill everything in the first hit or flee); it does 3-7 = average 5 extra damage; in the best case it does 2/3 the number of attacks; let's also assume that you have a hit chance of 50% with the QSD and do an average damage of 15: then with the BCC you have a hit chance of less than 62%, do an average damage of 20. But with only 4 vs 6 attacks (assuming 2 extra AP and the jewel), that gives a total average damage of 4 *20 * 62% = 50; with the QSD you get 6 * 15 * 50% = 45. Now the above numbers are pessimistic towards the QSD (typically the extra to-hit chance is lower than 12 percentage points and you would do more damage so the extra damage from the BCC is less important; also with the stock 10 AP it is 3 vs 5 attacks) and still they are roughly equal. So I think I'll stick with the QSD for now.

Also in the thread by SirGrindsAlot (very good read!) he says that the Combat Speed skills are not worth it but recommends taking AC skills instead. So, you'd improve your AC by 18 percentage points but give up 1 attack, e.g. 5 attacks at +18% vs 6 attacks at +0%. A similar calculation as above gives 5*15*68% = 51. This is less clear cut: higher base damage makes Combat Speed look worse in this scenario, but the more realistic lower increase in to-hit chance and/or a higher to-hit chance to start off with makes Combat Speed look better: according to a post by Sarumar, increasing AC-BC from 63 to 79 (almost the 18%) corresponds in an increased to-hit chance from 60% to 70%, giving 5*D*70% = 3.5*D vs 6*D*60% = 3.6*D. Of course the skill points may be better spent somewhere else than AC, but then the higher AP gives more options regarding fleeing and using potions.

[Sarumar]

Nessi, in this game there are not things like the ultimate build or eguipment. You can build many different "godlike" character and you will have great benefits if you change some of your eguipment ewery now and then (baced on your's current opponent).

happy journey

[Mino]

Also in the thread by SirGrindsAlot (very good read!) he says that the Combat Speed skills are not worth it but recommends taking AC skills instead. So, you'd improve your AC by 18 percentage points but give up 1 attack, e.g. 5 attacks at +18% vs 6 attacks at +0%.

I guess I missed that part of his thread, but I respectfully completely disagree about Combat Speed not being worth it. Here are my reasons (which also include reasons to get Cleave):

1) Using skills on weapon accuracy is not a bad idea in itself, but you can still increase your AC through regular level ups, so the +0% argument doesn't quite hold. There is no other way to permanently increase your unequipped total AP.

2) An extra attack per turn is especially valuable against monsters with high HP. If you thought the Auleths near BWM where high with over 100, the brutes and arulir are even tougher with HP in the 300s. It allows you to attack more often before fleeing or to just get in more hits before ending your turn.

3) Consider this: if you have Combat Speed 2, and the Jewel of Fallhaven, you get 6 attacks with the QSD, and 4 with the BSS. But for the QSD, if you also take a speed potion, you now get 7 attacks per turn.

3a) If you also get cleave level 1, any time you have to attack 2 or more monsters at a time (there seem to be more of those situations added in each update) you get an extra attack per turn for each kill with the BSS. For the QSD, if you kill 1 you get 1 more attack (3 AP) but if you kill 2 you get 3 more attacks (6 AP) to use on the 3rd monster. Adding cleave into the equation also makes weapons with a attack cost of 5 AP a little more useful - if you can kill the first monster in 1 or 2 attacks, you get enough AP for a 3rd attack that turn.

[Sarumar]

Also in the thread by SirGrindsAlot (very good read!) he says that the Combat Speed skills are not worth it but recommends taking AC skills instead. So, you'd improve your AC by 18 percentage points but give up 1 attack, e.g. 5 attacks at +18% vs 6 attacks at +0%.

I guess I missed that part of his thread, but I respectfully completely disagree about Combat Speed not being worth it. Here are my reasons (which also include reasons to get Cleave):

1) Using skills on weapon accuracy is not a bad idea in itself, but you can still increase your AC through regular level ups, so the +0% argument doesn't quite hold. There is no other way to permanently increase your unequipped total AP.

2) An extra attack per turn is especially valuable against monsters with high HP. If you thought the Auleths near BWM where high with over 100, the brutes and arulir are even tougher with HP in the 300s. It allows you to attack more often before fleeing or to just get in more hits before ending your turn.

3) Consider this: if you have Combat Speed 2, and the Jewel of Fallhaven, you get 6 attacks with the QSD, and 4 with the BSS. But for the QSD, if you also take a speed potion, you now get 7 attacks per turn.

3a) If you also get cleave level 1, any time you have to attack 2 or more monsters at a time (there seem to be more of those situations added in each update) you get an extra attack per turn for each kill with the BSS. For the QSD, if you kill 1 you get 1 more attack (3 AP) but if you kill 2 you get 3 more attacks (6 AP) to use on the 3rd monster. Adding cleave into the equation also makes weapons with a attack cost of 5 AP a little more useful - if you can kill the first monster in 1 or 2 attacks, you get enough AP for a 3rd attack that turn.

Ahh, Yesss .. do not underestimated the power of cleave