Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

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Tomcat
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Tomcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:29 am

nyktos wrote:
Tomcat wrote:
nyktos wrote:i split the thread as you were posting this :D
Thanks, and sorry to Antison for the threadjack in the first place.
i'm glad it happened though, one good idea begat another! :D

back on topic: i want to do some early quests, for places already in the game...

it's the perfect place for re-allocations like this.
That would be great. You know those two empty cabins SE and SW of Fallhaven? We should do something with those.

And that old guy who wants Calomyran Secrets back should know something about other topics....
Norbert
Lvl:52 XP:2597576 AP:12 HP:124 AC:282 AD:30-42 CHS:27 CM:2.0 ECC:18% BC:132 DR:2
Skills: CS:2 IF:2 Ev:3 Rg:1 DgPro:1 1HPro:2 LtAPro:2 FS-DW:2 Sp-DW:1
Equip: FP BSS JoF RoP PRoB SrpHbk GoLF EnhCH EnhCB
Other: DotSP VD GoW FB TG RoD+6 Oegyth:6

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nyktos
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by nyktos » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:49 am

Tomcat wrote:And that old guy who wants Calomyran Secrets back should know something about other topics....
thanks for the great suggestions, Tomcat! :twisted:
"Embrace the Shadow"

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[Lv: 60] [HP: 175] [AC: 361] [AD: 25-39] [BC: 75]
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Tomcat
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Tomcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:56 pm

According to the resource files, there are four "displaytypes" that can be assigned to special items:

"Quest" items. These are not sellable and not usable, except to deliver to an NPC as part of fulfilling a quest.

"Rare" items. These are powerful items generally (always?) findable in shops, though some can be in drops. I don't know all the functional differences otherwise. JoF and QSD are classic examples.

"Extraordinary" items. This list seems to be made up of two entirely different things. 1) 6 of the 7 1/1000 drops listed as "Extraordinary items", but not including Gem of Warmth, which has no displaytype! It still gets dropped as expected, but the chance is not affected by MF. (There is an old thread about this that didn't seem to get resolved.) 2) Various unique and powerful boss drops, like DotSP and Marrowtaint. On the other hand, Gutsplitter and Skullcrusher are uniques (I think) that have no displaytype. Should these be separated into two displaytypes?

"Legendary" items. The Big Three 1/10000 drops.

Besides making more of the cool stuff winnable instead of buyable, I'd love to take a shot at regularizing these categories. Any objections?

I have complete lists for each, if anyone wants to see them.
Norbert
Lvl:52 XP:2597576 AP:12 HP:124 AC:282 AD:30-42 CHS:27 CM:2.0 ECC:18% BC:132 DR:2
Skills: CS:2 IF:2 Ev:3 Rg:1 DgPro:1 1HPro:2 LtAPro:2 FS-DW:2 Sp-DW:1
Equip: FP BSS JoF RoP PRoB SrpHbk GoLF EnhCH EnhCB
Other: DotSP VD GoW FB TG RoD+6 Oegyth:6

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rijackson741
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by rijackson741 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:05 pm

I'm not sure what the rules are but I think it's this. Rare items can be purchased or they may be dropped, either as a boss drop or with a 1% drop chance. Extraordinary items are either gained by quests, boss drops or have a 0.1% drop chance.

I'm not sure how you would simplify it more than that.

Gutsplitter and Skullcrusher are purchased, and therefore not unique.

I just fixed GoW for the next release. It will show as extraordinary.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

Zukero
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Zukero » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:42 pm

Rare items were introduced because many people sold great unique items early on, me included. At that time, the poisonous dagger was one of the best weapons, and many players had it sold for spare change.
The goal of the "rare" marking was then to give a hint about items not worth selling.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2

Tomcat
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Tomcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:06 pm

But then Rare gets used for items that you can buy and sell at will, like JoF, while Extraordinary gets used for both unique boss/quest stuff and toss that are just, well, rare.
Norbert
Lvl:52 XP:2597576 AP:12 HP:124 AC:282 AD:30-42 CHS:27 CM:2.0 ECC:18% BC:132 DR:2
Skills: CS:2 IF:2 Ev:3 Rg:1 DgPro:1 1HPro:2 LtAPro:2 FS-DW:2 Sp-DW:1
Equip: FP BSS JoF RoP PRoB SrpHbk GoLF EnhCH EnhCB
Other: DotSP VD GoW FB TG RoD+6 Oegyth:6

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rijackson741
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by rijackson741 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:45 pm

What changes would you propose?
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

Pyrizzle
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Pyrizzle » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:14 am

Tom: Something like this maybe?

Legendary - The .01% drop items like the RoLS
Extraordinary - The .1% drop items
Unique - Items dropped by bosses or items that you can only get once
Rare - Powerful items from shops
Standard - Items dropped by NPCs (high drop rate) & Items that can be bought
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Lvl:24XP:244KAP:2/10HP:80AC: 189%AD:13-21CHS:-6CM: 0BC: 20%DR:2
IF:2Reg:2FSDW:1

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Tomcat
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by Tomcat » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:22 am

If I were king? Lol. Here goes...

Nothing in a store counts as Rare. Period. Take the best store items, like JoF ands QSD, and make them winnable (i.e. quest reward or boss drop), or make them just common items. If the latter, nerf it if absolutely necessary, but better to make the good stuff winnable. I considered the possibility of coding shops so that Rare items would only be there x% of the time, but then you'd just have people running back and forth between a shop and the nearest bed until it appears. Yawn.

If you really want to mark out Blue Light Special Deals in stores, call them something else besides Rare. They're not. Exceptional, maybe? But I hope we can cut out this whole class, as described above.

Rare items that are low-chance non-boss drops are fine as they are. In fact, move some of the lesser store-bought Rares into this category by changing which kind of drop list they are placed in. Say, 1-5% drops by boss-lieutenants or other tough-but-respawning monsters.

Winnable Extraordinary items are fine just as they are, I believe. I think they are all unique. This is a good thing.

The 7 random Extraordinary and 3 Legendary items (plus any future additions) could stay as they are, except I'd love to see a different name for winnable Extraordinaries and random Extraordinaries, if they both continue to exist.

Or...

Perhaps they could be made unique by tweaking the code to keep track of whether one has already appeared in the game or not. Sorry to everyone who has, or wants to have, 2 RoL etc to use at once, but I'm more interested in long term design than 100% backward compatibility.

Or make them all winnable, with the Legendaries toughest to get. I'm not really fond of the idea of really powerful stuff being random drops anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyrizzle wrote:Tom: Something like this maybe?

Legendary - The .01% drop items like the RoLS
Extraordinary - The .1% drop items
Unique - Items dropped by bosses or items that you can only get once
Rare - Powerful items from shops
Standard - Items dropped by NPCs (high drop rate) & Items that can be bought
Also a good list, and more straightforward than what we have now, though I still don't like calling something in a store Rare, when you can buy as many as you want, eventually, even if they are expensive. Unlike winnable or found things, the player doesn't need to be warned not to sell an item they can buy back at a slight loss. Price and stats should tell them all they need to know about whether it is a powerful item or not.
Norbert
Lvl:52 XP:2597576 AP:12 HP:124 AC:282 AD:30-42 CHS:27 CM:2.0 ECC:18% BC:132 DR:2
Skills: CS:2 IF:2 Ev:3 Rg:1 DgPro:1 1HPro:2 LtAPro:2 FS-DW:2 Sp-DW:1
Equip: FP BSS JoF RoP PRoB SrpHbk GoLF EnhCH EnhCB
Other: DotSP VD GoW FB TG RoD+6 Oegyth:6

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rijackson741
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Re: Great items being Earned instead of Purchased!

Post by rijackson741 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:14 am

I agree that being able to buy a rare item is not consistent with what Zukero said about the rare designation being a hint to not sell something. My choice would be to make all store bought items ordinary. Unique boss drops are rare, or extraordinary, depending on stats. Rare items can also be dropped by some monsters, at a rate of 1%, but this should be very limited. Extraordinary items can also be dropped by some monsters at a rate of 0.1%, but this should also be very limited. Legendary items are only dropped at the rate of 0.01%. Although, much further down the road, maybe there could even be a legendary boss drop.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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