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a question on condition percentages

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The Gray
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a question on condition percentages

Post by The Gray »

Ok, so in my character, I leveled up my "enduring body" skill once, so I get a 10% unlikely-hood to any negative physical capacity condition inflicted on me, and I was thinking about this when using my meat, meat only has a 10% chance of inflicting "food poison" onto me, so with that being said, I was still able to be inflicted with food poisoning despite the resistance from my skills, shouldn't I be immune to the negative effects of meat at least? I also have "Dark blessing of the Shadow" which also increases my resistance to ALL negative condition infliction chances by an additional 5%, that should put the food poison chance with meat well below 0%. I didn't know if 10% was the minimum percentage for condition infliction, which is understandable, but just wanted to be sure. :)
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rijackson741
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by rijackson741 »

Excellent question. As I read the description, it should reduce the chance of any condition in the physical category, which includes food poisoning, by 10%. Since the chance of food poisoning from meat is 10%, with one level of the skill it should be 0%. So if you can still get food poisoning then either the skill is not working as intended, or the description needs to be changed (or both). I'll poke around in the code a bit, but my Java skills are limited so we may have to wait for Zukero is weigh in on this.

I suspect that what it should say is "Lowers the chance of being afflicted with conditions affecting your physical capacity by 10% of the base chance for every skill level". In other words, with one level the chance of food poisoning is 9%. If that's correct, then I think it's an under-powered skill that needs to be changed.

Edit: I have a savefile with a spare skill point, so I just tried this, and can confirm I see the same thing.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Zukero
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Zukero »

The maths behind these skills is rather weird.
The skill lowers the chance by ten percent for each skill point.
With one skill point:
- If you have a 10% chance of getting poisoned, the skill makes it (10% - (10% of 10%)) = 9%.
- For an actor condition that has a 90% chance , the skill makes it (90% - (10% of 90%)) = 81%.
- For an actor condition that has a 100% chance of being applied, the resistance skill isn't applied at all (still 100% chance).

As you can see, the skill is most effective against highly probable conditions.
A plain point loss would be better suited, maybe with a lower number, like 5 points per skill point.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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The Gray
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by The Gray »

Zukero wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:54 pm The maths behind these skills is rather weird.
The skill lowers the chance by ten percent for each skill point.
With one skill point:
- If you have a 10% chance of getting poisoned, the skill makes it (10% - (10% of 10%)) = 9%.
- For an actor condition that has a 90% chance , the skill makes it (90% - (10% of 90%)) = 81%.
- For an actor condition that has a 100% chance of being applied, the resistance skill isn't applied at all (still 100% chance).

As you can see, the skill is most effective against highly probable conditions.
A plain point loss would be better suited, maybe with a lower number, like 5 points per skill point.
Ah ok, that makes a lot of sense then, the percentage's most effective until you reach a condition's base infliction percent, thanks! : )

Keep up the great work Zukero! Love your game so much, it has so much potential! : ))
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rijackson741
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by rijackson741 »

Zukero wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:54 pmFor an actor condition that has a 100% chance of being applied, the resistance skill isn't applied at all (still 100% chance)
That makes no sense to me at all.
Zukero wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:54 pm A plain point loss would be better suited, maybe with a lower number, like 5 points per skill point.
Or a change in description. And I agree with the great Sarumar (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3937&p=37201&hilit= ... ody#p37201) that the skills are too expensive. A reduction of 25% of the base chance per skill level, with a cap of three levels, sounds about right to me.

Edit: So how does it affect something like
Lodar's perilous concoction?
Does it reduce the chance of positive effects as well as negative ones?
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Kashim
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Kashim »

I agree with rijackson, it doesn't really make a lot of sense that it wouldn't work on 100% chance hits. If anything, that should be where it is most valuable: other people don't have a chance to get out of it, but you do. If you want to make it so that no one can resist your status, make it a 1000% chance to take effect, and make sure no one can ever get past 90% resistance.
I had kind of always assumed that it would work as a percent of a percent, since that's how a lot of other such things work in the game. I will agree though that the resistance skills are vastly under-powered, considering the missed opportunity cost of taking them.
I would suggest any of the following:

Make the skills non-linear, and thus, more linear (I know this makes no sense, bear with me). Have the first point reduce the effects by 50%. The second, 25%. the third 10%, giving a maximum of 85% (90% with Dark blessing). Each skill would then be reducing occurrences by about half, compared to the previous skill. This would leave you using 9 skill points to become 90% immune to all statuses.

Compress the skills into one skill that affects all of the fields, and have it give 10% each level, up to 80% (85% with Dark blessing). This would mean 8 skill points to become 85% immune to all statuses.

Change the skills into two skills, one for Body, one for Mind (really, the blood is part of the body anyway...). Have them scale by 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%. This would mean that you'd get 90% status immunity (95% if you had dark blessing) after 8 skill points.


As a side note and additional question: how does Dark blessing currently work in concert with the other 3? If I have 20% resistance to an effect through my other abilities, does the dark blessing make that 25%, by just adding on the 5%, or does it do a percent of a percent also, making my effective resistance 24%? If I have 50% from other skills, do I get 55%, or 52.5%?
If it's the former, then I think it is great. If it's the latter, then I gotta say... Dang what a worthless ability.
I have too many characters to list them, so I'll just list my most important:
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L&E: RoLS: 2 ElyR: 1 RoL: 2 BD: 1
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Zukero
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Zukero »

Dark blessing adds 5%. With two levels of the relevant resistance and one level of Dark blessing, you effectively have a 25% reduction, leading to a 7.5% chance of food poisoning.

It seems it does indeed reduce your chances of getting a positive condition too :shock: :?

I guess we could make that -25% per skill point as resistance to negative conditions, and +10% per skill point as aptitude to receive positive ones.

That wouldn't solve the issue that the skill is most effective against conditions that have a high probability of being applied. I'm really beginning to think that a solid modifier (in chance points, not in percentage) would be better suited, and may make these skills more desirable. There aren't many really strong defensive skills besides IF (and, to some extent, Bark Skin), so this could help diversify the winning strategies.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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Kashim
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Kashim »

Zukero wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:45 pm It seems it does indeed reduce your chances of getting a positive condition too :shock: :?
I just noticed for the first time that Sustenance is a Physical Capacity status effect. Is the reason that the 100% chance has to be kept at 100% just so that you cannot make yourself "immune" (or resistant) to eating food, or have someone get themselves "immune" to Blackwater Misery, or, god forbid, Kazaul Rotworms? I feel like, rather than just being 100%, these may need an alternate classification, like 101%, 1000%, or 10,000% to make them guaranteed.

Obviously, it should be the case that it doesn't make you more resistant to positive effects, but that might be somewhat hard to classify; what about Accuracy Focus? Is that "Positive", or "Negative"? What about being intoxicated? It definitely has a damage boost. I've actually been wanting to figure out a way to do a drunken fist build, but never managed to see how being intoxicated would ever have enough benefit to make it worth the price...

Has anyone ever actually gotten a character with the Rejuvenation skill to know if it actually only affects negative actor conditions (like it says), or if it has a chance to take off a level of your sustenance? How does it classify 'negative'?

Also, can you cure Rotworms with Rejuvenation? I've never even tried (because it takes 40 levels worth of skill points to friggin' get it), but that'd be hilarious.
I have too many characters to list them, so I'll just list my most important:
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Lvl: 1 XP:56034
L&E: RoLS: 2 ElyR: 1 RoL: 2 BD: 1
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Zukero »

Actor Conditions have an attribute that classify them as either positive or negative, the latter being the default. Code-wise, it's easy to differentiate the behavior of each. You can check which is which on Andor's Trail Directory (like at the top of the page, in the useful links).

We could indeed have "Never" and "Always" treated differently than 0% and 100%. I can even see an item that gives 0% chance to apply a powerful actor condition, which you can only trigger when you have a skill granting a bonus over that 0%. We'll have to rework all existing conditions effects that are either 100% or 0% to decide whether they are absolute (always, or never), or still numerical. That alone is quite a task, that I'd rather classify as part of the Great Rebalancing that is currently being studied and planned, but will not be part of the next release.

Rejuvenation cannot act on conditions that are either:
- Permanent (no duration, like rotworms, or shadow regeneration, or blackwater misery)
- Positive
- A spiritual condition
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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Re: a question on condition percentages

Post by Kashim »

Zukero wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:34 pm That alone is quite a task, that I'd rather classify as part of the Great Rebalancing that is currently being studied and planned, but will not be part of the next release.
You see a dusty and worn book mysteriously on the table before you. You could swear it wasn't there when you looked a second ago. The book is as large as any you've ever seen before, and bound firmly in dark red leather. The pages are thick parchment. A gust of wind blows open your window and blows the book open with a sickening creek. As you walk up to look at the pages, you think yourself foolish, or insane, as you know what may await you in its pages. As you lean forward to look at the pages, most of the letters are unknown to you, and they begin to move around on the page as you attempt to read them. Only this text stays in one place long enough for you to read it:
The Great Rebalancing: The Great Old Ones, unhappy with the numbers of followers had by each, cull their followers so that each god has an appropriate number with regards to their place in the hierarchy. This can be done either by sacrifice, war, or simple murder. In this way, the minor ones never become more than minor ones, and the Great Old Ones maintain the respect that they rightfully deserve.

And now you know what is to come. The terror and magnitude of the coming slaughter haunt your thoughts, yet you cannot help but know that the knowledge will help you greatly to avoid its effects.
Gain 2 clues, lose 2 Sanity.
I have too many characters to list them, so I'll just list my most important:
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:56034
L&E: RoLS: 2 ElyR: 1 RoL: 2 BD: 1
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