Are You All In?

A place for general discussion about the content and gameplay of Andor's Trail.
User avatar
Growler
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm
android_version: 4.4

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Growler » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:50 am

Kashim -- Ha!
So....does the bear get to keep All your equipment? ;)
(btw, never confuse 'angry' with 'hungry'!)

BethelAbba, which skills/attributes have you gone 'all in' on?
What's your best 'all in' build so far?
Opposition is True Friendship. As your Once & Future Friend, I oppose that notion.
~~~
Black is White, White is Black, 1984 is Back.

User avatar
rijackson741
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:04 am
android_version: 6.0
Location: Somewhere in Dhayavar

Re: Are You All In?

Post by rijackson741 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:10 am

I've been busy, and traveling, so I've not had time to weigh in on this thread, but a couple of comments:

The gold value of an item makes little sense to me. But, as I mentioned in another thread, I don't think it's ever been changed to accommodate developments in the game. It's on my to-do list to look at it, but I have much higher priorities (specifically, anything that actually gets the next release out).

Variable DR on an item is an interesting idea, but not consistent with the way other stats behave. When you equip an item the only stat that has a variable value is AD. All others are fixed at a specific number. If we have variable DR, why not variable BC, and AC, and CM, and CS?

I still think it's too hard to get a useful amount of DR later in the game, but I take the point that getting too much of it, along with other decent stats, would be overpowered. It's a difficult stat to balance.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

User avatar
Growler
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm
android_version: 4.4

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Growler » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:50 pm

Thanks for the feedback here.

A point or two of DR early in the game is so helpful..really increased the fun & helped me want to continue playing. Later in the game, it would be nice/helpful to more easily get a few extra points, but currently, even having just 3 pts helps tamp down the bleed-out..such as when grinding.

Speaking of variable DR reminds me of a question I've been curious about.. how are the 'dice' rolls handled when it comes to doing/receiving damage?
Is it a single die, such that you're as likely to dish out (or receive) any of the possible numbers (given the effective range of potential damage) -- or multiple dice such that the effective range is 'shaped' towards the middle (like '7' being the most rolled number with (2) 6-sided dice)?
My impression is that the numbers are shaped (using multiple dice) towards the middle of the possible range..which seems the better, more consistent, way to calculate things.
Opposition is True Friendship. As your Once & Future Friend, I oppose that notion.
~~~
Black is White, White is Black, 1984 is Back.

Zukero
Lead Developer
Posts: 1481
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:56 am
android_version: 7.1

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Zukero » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:55 pm

It's a theoretically linear distribution. No explicit shaping of the curve whatsoever.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2

User avatar
Growler
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm
android_version: 4.4

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Growler » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:49 pm

Thanks for answering. Been developing my own very old-school RPG (along lines of early Wizardry & Bard's Tale) and find the combat mechanics especially interesting.. so curious to know how other games handle the random ranges or dice rolls.

Guess one obvious advantage to a single die (in essence, for a linear distribution) is a less predictable hit/damage within the given range, which may be more exciting for some players.
Any thoughts re why AT goes with linear distribution?
Or anyone have a pref for flat or shaped distribution?
Opposition is True Friendship. As your Once & Future Friend, I oppose that notion.
~~~
Black is White, White is Black, 1984 is Back.

User avatar
rijackson741
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:04 am
android_version: 6.0
Location: Somewhere in Dhayavar

Re: Are You All In?

Post by rijackson741 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:31 am

I don't know why it's a boxcar distribution. Like many things, it goes back to a decision made by Oskar in the early part of the game development. My best guess is that it was chosen because it was the simplest option, but that is no more than a guess (it's not even an educated guess, it's just a guess). Personally, I don't have any inclination to change it. As you say, it leads to a less predictable outcome, and that works for me.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

User avatar
Kashim
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:40 pm
android_version: 6.0
Location: The Internet

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Kashim » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:03 pm

rijackson741 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:10 am
Variable DR on an item is an interesting idea, but not consistent with the way other stats behave. When you equip an item the only stat that has a variable value is AD. All others are fixed at a specific number. If we have variable DR, why not variable BC, and AC, and CM, and CS?
This one is gonna get long, so apologies, and a forward of saying that I don't mean to offend or badger, just discuss my point of view.

I would argue that BC and AC and Criticals are already variable, and that DR is actually the only stat that isn't. Your AC and BC represent a chance to do something, as do your critical stats, as does your AD, with the only difference being that AC, BC, and Criticals are bounded 0-1 (boolean) while AD is bounded to a range. Your DR is the only stat that has a guaranteed effect, not a chance, but an absolutely guaranteed value that does not vary based upon your opponent's natural stats (status conditions aside for now). The Critical Multiplier is an interesting thought to be variable, but since it already varies somewhat with AD, there isn't a lot of point in it. However, having a weapon that had a 2.5x-3x critical would be interesting though, I think.

When I think about AC and BC, I think about it like this:
AC and BC are the end result of a pile of other calculations and variables, (how well I can see my opponent, how fast they move, how fast I move, how heavy my equipment is, how accurate my attacks are, etc.) resulting in an end chance. There isn't reason for them to be variable because they already are. If I have a 60% chance to hit, then making that a 55-65% chance with even distribution doesn't make sense, because that's still just a 60% chance in the end anyway. Introducing variation to variation doesn't really make more variation.

DR, however, is solid. It is saying that, no matter what the enemy's circumstances, I will resist this particular amount of damage. My opponent is not capable of changing that resistance without inducing some kind of status effect. There is currently no mechanic for armor piercing on the initial hit, and any modifications to DR from status effects are pure numbers again. Thus, "My armor covers every square inch of my body, perfectly uniformly. Chaotic curse makes my armor slightly thinner all around." Not to mention the fact that it doesn't ever make sense to me to have DR go negative, but I digress. Anyway, I think that a variable DR would be my way of saying, "Yes, there are flaws in my armor, and places where I might be less protected, and for accurate modeling, those deserve to be calculated on the defensive side, not the offensive." What it really makes me think of is a uniform magnetic field through which someone is moving an electromagnet and receiving perfectly constant resistance.

However, I'm a simulation engineer. I simulate things for a living, so I'm always one who will push for things to be more accurate to life when possible.

Also, completely aside, variable AC would have a lean to the negative at above 50% hit chance, and a lean to the positive at below 50% hit chance, and that would just make life really, really confusing.
What I mean by this is that if you currently have 40 more AC than your target has BC, you have a 42.2% chance to hit. If you have +/-10AC coming off of an item (In other words, if you had 30-50 AC more than your opponent), then it goes up to 50%, and down to 35.24%. The average of this result doesn't center around 42.2% anymore, but rather around 42.6%, so +/-10 isn't really +/-10 anymore, it's closer to +0.5 because of the natural hit bias toward center. The downward version of that effect would be seen at values greater than 50% original chance to hit.
Flux
Lvl:40 HP:97 AC:133% AD: 29-36 CHS: 40 CM: 3.0 BC: 117% DR: 14
Skills: BS: 4 CS: 2 IF: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:S: 2
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:44700
L&E: RoLS: 2 Elyr: 1 RoL: 0 ChaR: 0 Golf: 0 Shaf: 0 Srov: 0 VSH: 0 GoW: 1 WMC: 0

User avatar
Growler
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm
android_version: 4.4

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Growler » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:47 pm

rijackson741 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:31 am
I don't know why it's a boxcar distribution. Like many things, it goes back to a decision made by Oskar in the early part of the game development. My best guess is that it was chosen because it was the simplest option, but that is no more than a guess (it's not even an educated guess, it's just a guess). ..
That was my best guess as well, especially considering the multitude of things to contend with in making a big+complex game. All the more if (presumably?) by one person initially.

Kashim, you've well articulated some thoughts I've more vaguely pondered. Interesting angles, there!

Part of what's interesting in either developing or playing a game such as AT, is considering what's likely..what are the odds -- ex: if I enter this particular room, and get swarmed by 3 strong monsters, what are my likely odds of beating them? Do I need to eat some meat first? Do I need to pause mid-way to consume some bonemeal potion (assuming my HP's been knocked down to half or whatever), etc?
And those 'odds' you're contemplating..partly consciously, partly unconsciously/automatically all come down to your Sense of what the variables seem to be.. how consistently does a mob get a crit-hit, what's the upper potential -- can I withstand such? Risk/reward analysis..but in (mostly) fun terms. ;)

More specifically, re your line:
"DR, however, is solid. It is saying that, no matter what the enemy's circumstances.."

But of course the "enemy's circumstances" Are part of the larger context..so, in a sense, DR is variable..because while IT is set, other aspects are not -- and that creates uncertainty.

Not arguing against making DR variable (which I kinda like, having some range there), but considering the larger game/context, there may be sufficient variability with some mobs hitting max of a few pts but others hitting for 60+ (ouchies!). So even max DR *may* not save you..depending on your HP in the moment.

Btw, that's really cool you do simulation engineering!
What type of things do you typically simulate, if I may ask?
Opposition is True Friendship. As your Once & Future Friend, I oppose that notion.
~~~
Black is White, White is Black, 1984 is Back.

User avatar
rijackson741
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:04 am
android_version: 6.0
Location: Somewhere in Dhayavar

Re: Are You All In?

Post by rijackson741 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:10 pm

Good point by Kashim about AC and BC being inherently variable anyway, since they convert to a probability of something happening. But that makes me think that having DR as the one thing that is not variable (other than CM, the application of which is subject to chance) is perhaps a good thing. It sets it apart from the other stats.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

User avatar
Voom
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:24 pm
android_version: 4.4
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Are You All In?

Post by Voom » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:16 am

There is a method to the madness. I think it is clear that Oskar wanted more ambiguity in the game mechanics. How robotic would it be if there was this secret "master formula" that tied all of these factors we have been discussing together? Ultimately, it becomes a numbers game where certain equipment and builds dwarf others.

AT was designed so that a master formula could never exist. And that is valuable. Creativity reigns. Sure things are not balanced perfectly and, yes, after time we have the inclination to use what we think is the 'most op' equipment. But that only means that what is 'most op' is not instantly obvious. Though, we can do a better job of balancing combat, equipment, skills, stats, conditions, etc. In fact I'm currently working on a preliminary list of equipment that include some the ideas that are on the table to definitively improve the balance of some of these things. My computer is busted ever since Irma, so progress is slow on my brother's tablet. Although, I just bought a new spicy machine and will not be limited on computer time.

Speaking of DR, I think Kashim is taking a more realistic approach. I think it makes sense in the current context to have DR mirror AD as BC mirrors AC. However, I agree with rijackson in the uniqueness of this stat. Whatever the solution, it has to be implemented in tandem with the eventual balancing of defensive builds altogether. And that's a little bit tricky. All-in defensive builds are not efficient... :cry:
Voomster Lvl 23 |HP 52 |AC 173% |AD 17-52 |ECC 20% |CM 3.0 |BC 61% |DR 2 Build 2/3221/0

Voomboy Retired at 41 and is reading The Fey of Feygard
Voom Retired at 46 and took up translating

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest