Avoid Combat Speed

[rigao]

May I have a look at this spreadsheet? I may have done my math incorrectly and I would love to know where. Specially because the BSS (just a plain vanilla weapon, in your words) has more damage and more AC than the two weapons I compared it too. Certainly I did not take into account the critical hits because the math gets more complicated.

I am not asking for all the weapons to be equal for all the stages of the game, all I am asking is making Combat Speed not obligatory by giving two handed weapons with 6AP a chance, from level 15 onward.

[CKork]

A gleaming claymore of ruin and a pretty damn good two-handed sword.

Screenshot_20200530-083747.png

But I agree with you that we need more options in the beginning of the game for two-handed swords.

I have builds using the GoSH, Xu'lviir, and the GCoR. With the new DM, they are all viable options now. Are there more one-handed weapons that are available that are better? Yes. Does that prevent me from using them? No.

Great two handed weapon. Especially since it can have 3 hits per round due to only needing 5 AP. JoF or MT plus 2x CS.
The OP complained about 6AP weapons, which will not profit frol both, JoF and CS, and therefore always stay at 2 attacks max.

I understand your number crunches, but I disagree with your conclusion.
1) crits do matter. They can add insane dmg and enable one shots. Plus they help alot to ger high dmg resistance enemies down quite well.
2) dmg reduction on mobs matters. Especially end game mobs have a lot of it. More swings with less dmg per hit get nerved drastically on each hit. For a high dmg but less attacks weapon, less of your dmg is absorbed over all.
3) you are missing the most umportant point. Many builds focus on both, the necklace and CS for more attacks per round. With a 6 AP weapon, you will only ever use one of these options. Therefore, you can focus on other near necklaces (like the undead one) or save 2 skills to put elsewhere (e. g. in more crits, which is quite good, or 8 lvl sooner completion of the 2 handed weapon specializations, etc).


Unless all of that is thoroughly considered, your math doesn't allow a proper rating.

And again, sometimes you just want flavor, or a theme, or a 2nd playthrough with something else. Not everything needs to be on par.

Amazon was the worst char in Diablo 2, but it got played soooo much!

[rijackson741]

I don't want to make the spreadsheet public, because without a multipage Word document and more than 150 posts in private forums is has no context.

I will summarize though. This was no back-of-the-envelope calculation. A lot of time when into it. Weeks. It starts with the old high score list: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=327, because that is based on a lot of different builds created by different players. After some assumptions and a lot of messing around we come up with some guidelines for damage modifiers that attempt to make all weapons the same as a nominal weapon with an attack cost of 4. Here are the guideline modifiers, as a function of level:

Guideline multipliers..PNG

Note the big jumps at levels 15 and 30 for the higher attack cost weapons. What that is telling you is that it is not possible to have a 6AP weapon that is equivalent to a 4AP weapon at level 20, and also at level 30. In the case of the Great axe of shattered hope it would be very difficult to get it before level 30 though, but it does only have a damage modifier of 1.5. We should probably increase that to 1.8, which would fix the issue you are seeing for this weapon.

And you really cannot ignore crits and actor conditions. They make a big difference.

[rigao]

Of course I cannot pretend to understand the graphs, but thanks for the insight, it is very much appreciated.

Let me see if I at least got the idea behind it.

Sword and shield:

* At level 29 you wield a 4AP sword with necklace, so you have 3 attacks, 25% more AC from weapon, 25% more BC from shield.
* At level 30 you invest into fighting style and CS, so you get 50% more AC, 50% more BC and 4 attacks instead of three.

It is difficult for me to generalize without the spreadsheet the developers have, but based on the gear my current save at level 30 have, I'd say the second level of fighting style will yield 8AC more (balanced steel sword) and 3,5BC more (strong wooden tower shield). That is around 3 levelups for that skill. On the other hand, the one more attack will output 33% more damage, and based on the aforementioned gear, that is 20 more damage potential (or 20 levelups).

Dual wield :

* At level 29 you wield a ¿3AP sword? (I have to be sincere, I have always dual wield but always after level 30) with necklace, so 3 attacks per turn and 50% of the qualities of the weapon off-hand. (maybe a 4AP sword and attack 2 times)
* At level 30 you invest into fighting style and CS, so you get 100% of the quality of the weapon and 6 attacks per turn (with the 4AP option you get to attack 4 times here).

In any case (3AP, 4AP), you are attacking twice as much, hence you increase your base damage by 100% in just one level. I cannot possibly put numbers to that case because my gear was never oriented that way.

Two handed option (with 5AP weapon):

* At level 29 you wield a 5AP weapon, you can have whatever necklace suits you because you are getting 2 attacks no matter what. The damage of the weapon is increased by 30%.
* At level 30, you invest into fighting style and CS, so you get 30% more damage from your weapon and again, one more attack.

In this case, the boost in damage dealt is 50% + whatever the damage of the weapon is.

Two handed options (with 6AP weapon):

* At level 29 you get 2 attacks with the appropriate necklace, 30% more damage from your weapon.
* At level 30 you invest one skill point only into fighting style, so you get an additional 30% more damage from your weapon, but 2 attacks.

In this case, the boost is whatever you will get for the two skills you have invested on. As I do not see skills as powerful as CS, it may be interesting, but not as game-breaking as the other options.


If what I have stated above is right, then I accept it is a very hard to balance because the boost from the CS ranges from the 33% more damage potential of the weapon + shield, to the 100% more damage potential in the dual wield option. I agree it is border line impossible to make everything be on par always.

So accepting that, I would say that the proper thing to do would be to have two-handed weapons with 6AP more powerful before level 30, and then let the other options surpass it. This way you can choose between having a pleasant ride until level 30 and have it hard afterwards, or choosing to endure difficulties until level 30 only to be crazily strong after level 30.

If you would allow me, I would say one last thing before I quit my rambling: To me it makes no sense that two-handed options lean toward critical hits. It seems that when you wield a two-handed weapon you are not precise. You deal a lot of damage always because your weapon is very heavy, but of course you cannot aim for the joins of the armor of your opponent, controlling such a heavy weapon to that precision is impossible.

On the other hand, small weapons, like daggers, can aim for soft spots in the armor of your enemy, hence are more prone to critical hits. You are fast, you are precise and you do not hit hard unless you succeed in hitting that critical point.

[CKork]

Heavy, big weapon. Unprecise. Therefore every now and then you hit the body parts you want. You are absolutely correct.
But if you do, it is devastating! You could argue that for exactly that reason crits do make sense for only big and heavy weapons.

[rijackson741]

Our rebalancing was only aimed at the attack cost of the weapons. There are a lot of other things that also need to be looked at (BC of shields, skill bonuses), but we decided to adjust the most important thing (i.e. the biggest current problem), and then let the dust settle from that before messing with anything else. If we try to change everything at once we are as likely to break it even more as we are to fix it. High attack cost weapons are now much more viable than they were, which was the goal.

It's not even possible to decide which weapon is better without considering the enemy. See my example here: viewtopic.php?p=67614#p67614

So we need to see how the current changes work out. If nobody goes with two handed weapons, then the best fix would probably be improving the skills, not changes to any single weapon.

I'll also note that your analysis looks only at damage, and ignores the extra BC you get from weapon and shield. Personally, I think shields are under powered, but that is just a feeling. I have not tried to do any math to prove it. The better two handed weapons have actor conditions that make a substantial difference. I do not even know how to account for those in some mathematical model.

[Lacrom]

I think shields are under powered, but that is just a feeling. I have not tried to do any math to prove it.

IMO, shields are not really under powered... it's just useful in early game that's all... it is necessary at low lvl, to get a minimum BC and DR, but it is not the best build in long-term.

Maybye the new type of weapon, "parrying weapon" (such as the trident dagger available in this beta in Brimhaven) will improve this way of fighting... I personally consider it as a really good idea !!! in the early game, when I reach Stoutford, I usually buy the "spiked buckler" (used with yagatan it makes crazy dmg), and parrying weapons seem even better !

[CKork]

I think shields are under powered, but that is just a feeling. I have not tried to do any math to prove it.

IMO, shields are not really under powered... it's just useful in early game that's all... it is necessary at low lvl, to get a minimum BC and DR, but it is not the best build in long-term.

Maybye the new type of weapon, "parrying weapon" (such as the trident dagger available in this beta in Brimhaven) will improve this way of fighting... I personally consider it as a really good idea !!! in the early game, when I reach Stoutford, I usually buy the "spiked buckler" (used with yagatan it makes crazy dmg), and parrying weapons seem even better !

The extraordinary shield from the jelly beans is an awesome one, and made me think long and hard whether to go for weapon plus shield.
I was using it for a veeeery long time very successfully

[Antison]

The extraordinary shield from the jelly beans is an awesome one, and made me think long and hard whether to go for weapon plus shield.
I was using it for a veeeery long time very successfully

I've got a build centered around that shield. Using it with the QsD.


Let's get back to discuss the topic at hand