Avoid Combat Speed

[rigao]

Hello fellow adventurers.

Yesterday, as I was trying to make sense of the 'way of the monk' skill, I started to think about which skills are fundamental for any character.

Of course, the game is not so difficult with infinite deaths and saves, so you can make the character any way you want and grind your way to invincible with any skill, but I am talking about skills so fundamentally overpowered that you choose not to pick them to give yourself a challenge.

And the ones that come to mind immediately are Increased Fortitude and Combat Speed. There is a thread already about how IF is overpowered, so here I wanted to talk about CS in the context of the weapon redesign.

CS was a must until now because it allowed you to make one more attack each turn. If you dualwielded, as you should, then you would be attacking four times instead of three, and that is 33% more damage each turn, a very good boost for 2 skill levels. With my lvl57 character that is 28-42 more damage each turn, so two skill levels are comparable to 35 damage, which is 35 levels! No other skill gives you that much, does it? And the great thing is that it scales with the character, so it gives you more benefit the stronger you are.

So how do I propose to avoid CS? Easy, create strong 6AP weapons. With those weapons, you can fit 2 attacks with CS2, but you can also fit 2 attacks with Marrowtaint and no CS. If the strength of the weapon makes a viable build, then you have a choice to make: do you go with marrowtaint and invest your skill elsewhere, or you prefer CS and go for other necklaces?

[rigao]

---- NUMBER CRUNCH TIME -----

My problem right now is that I do not see a good weapon that fits the bill. Admittedly as I was dualwielding, I do not have a great collection of two handed weapons, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that the Greataxe of shattered hope is the best two handed weapon in the game with 6 AP (it is the best I have in my inventory). Let's crunch some numbers but let's put aside criticals because it makes calculations confusing.

Character level: 30 (because that is when you can choose CS2 and hence the moment you obtain its great benefits. And let's assume, for the sake of argument again, that you have chosen AC, BC and Damage equally, so your base stats look like:

Damage: 11
AC: 110
BC: 30

Let's further assume you have 2 villains rings equipped (AC 25, Damage 3-6).

If you dualwield Balanced steel sword (AC 32, Damage 3-7) and have chosen to dualwield x2, then:

* 4 attacks.
* AC from swords: 64.
* Damage from swords: 6-14
* Total damage: 11 + (6-14) + 2x(3-7) = 23-39

So, ignoring for the moment the AC, we are making 23-39 damage x 4 each turn, so 92-156

If we wield the Greataxe of shattered hope (32AC, Damage 5-8, attack modifier 150%, and some more stuff I will ignore here) with two points in two handed weapons (60% more damage), the stats are:

* 2 attacks
* AC from greataxe: 32.
* Damage from greataxe: 5-8.
* Damage from attack modifier: 3 * (11 + 2x(3-7)) / 2 = 3 * (17-25) / 2 = 25-37
* Total damage: 25-37 + 5-8 = 30-45

We see that the AC is lower with this build, but ignoring this fact, the total damage output per turn is 2 x 30-45 = 60-90. Way lower than a stock blade as the balanced sword.

Of course, I am ignoring many things in this calculations (for instance, criticals and the two spare skills we have in the twohanded build), but I think the point will still stand, as there is so much more difference: we need stronger weapns at 6AP. It will benefit the game as it will give other options for players, which is always good.

[Lacrom]

the best 6 AP weapon is clearly Xul'wiir

Xul'viir
Extraordinary
Category : two-handed sword
AP cost : 6
AC : 32
Dmg : 4-12
DmgModifier : 173%
CS : 3
CritMultiplier : 2
BC : 12
Max HP : -2

When hitting target
on target
15% bleeding wound*3 3rounds
10% Dazed 2rounds

you got it by finishing the Hiraz'inn quest, but this weapon costs 3 oegyth crystals

[rigao]

The fact that it costs crystals is something that does not appeal to me, but even considering it, the main advantage would be the 173%, which translates into 1.73 * (17-25) = 29-43 damage per attack + 4-12 for the weapon, so 33-55 per attack, or 66-110 per turn, which is clearly inferior to a blade you can buy in shops. Of course, I am again ignoring critical hits, but remember we have also better blades for a dualwield.

Of course, a point that I am ignoring here is that the 173% actually scales partially with your level, so boasting 22 base damage instead of 11 would increase 19 more points your attack, but I think it is still underpowered. Maybe at level 100 it is a good build, but you only need level 50 to beat the game, so the discussion should be directed to the range 30-50 levels.

[CKork]

Just a hint:
The 1.73 does NOT apply to weapon damage! It applies to stats increased by equip (if I am not mistaken) and to character damage base stats.
Since the equipment and especially the base stats make up for MOST of your damage compared to pure weapon damage, the high% and slow AP weapons get a significant boost over faster weapons, but balancing them out regarding round based damage.

While CS is a very good skill, yes, it only becomes viable at lvl 30 and with two points. Depending on your char strategy, saving those 2 points for something else might be worthwhile at that point, especially if you go for two handed ( JoF does the job! )

IF isn't overpowered either. It is a good skill, with a good cost benefit ratio, but it only truly pays off in late game.

For each play style and each character build, there are several equipment, skill and stat options. Playmode has an impact, too, as well as "feel and touch" or theme.

In most games there is that one skill that seems to be a must have with that awesome cost benefit ratio, but in most cases you can mitigate.
And if you plan your character for lvl 50 max, and you want that one planned skillset to work, then maybe there is no room for CS and/or IF. Cleave wants a demanding 3 skills for itself

[rijackson741]

Just a hint:
The 1.73 does NOT apply to weapon damage! It applies to stats increased by equip (if I am not mistaken) and to character damage base stats.

That is correct.

IF isn't overpowered either. It is a good skill, with a good cost benefit ratio, but it only truly pays off in late game.

IMO, IF is overpowered. I base that on the fact that I have a lot of it, and I'm basically invincible. Although you are right that my main build could only be considered "late game"

Regardless, if the new damage modifier once again opens up the question of what the best weapon is, it fulfills it's purpose

[CKork]

I never doubted the best weapon, and no damage modifier is going to change that.

It is and always was a sharp mind. And with that, anything you think through will be viable, no matter if axe, DW daggers, wooden club (cause you just like to hammer on trolls for 100 times until they squeeze out their last breath in seemingly never ending pain) or the two handed Xul'vir, that will make you OP, evil and have people in Nor city throw tomatos and eggs at you.

[rigao]

I think I'm not getting my point across, so I will try to rephrase it and see if I have more luck:

I think that there is potential to make two-handed swords viable but it is not so in the current build. I ran the numbers in my second post of the thread at level 30 and the results were clear, the best two-handed weapon (which costs crystals, by the way) is dealing 1/3 less damage than equipment bought in shops. And that is without taking into account the trade-off you take when attacking less times, that is, you are more subject to random chance and you fight mobs less efficiently. No answer tried to challenge my calculations (apart from stating the damage modifier applies to damage outside the weapon, which is exactly what I took into account in my calculations), so we should accept the results until such challenge appears.

I will expand my thesis: I think the game is not giving you the option to play two-handed swords at all at any point. I have made a character just to play without CS. I am at level 14 and I am yet to find something two-handed which seems interesting. There is one option on Vilegard and one option on Crossroads (which of course you do not have unlocked by level 15). By the time you unlock those, you have to compare them to the balanced sword, and they lose badly. I can run the numbers if you like at different levels of character, but only if someone is going to take it seriously, otherwise it is just too much work.

The game should have a reasonable two-handed sword on Crossglen (5AP) and a good 6AP two-handed sword in Fallhaven. There you can buy (yes, it is expensive, but it is there for the taking) the amulet and swing that two-handed sword two times per round. Again, I can run the numbers to show you some options not overpowered. I can make it so it is just slightly worse than options available.

With this addition, you at least lure some new people in that direction at level 15 (as it is a viable option when they cannot buy Crossroads or Vilegard). Then, one 6AP option reasonable in Crossroads (because Vilegard is not a given if you want to side with the 'good guys') that can compete with the balanced sword (even if it is worse, but say it reaches 90% of its damage output at least).

Of course, a late-game two-handed weapon would be great, but it is not necessary and will only satisfy people with monstrous characters at level 100.

[Antison]

A gleaming claymore of ruin and a pretty damn good two-handed sword.

Screenshot_20200530-083747.png

But I agree with you that we need more options in the beginning of the game for two-handed swords.

I have builds using the GoSH, Xu'lviir, and the GCoR. With the new DM, they are all viable options now. Are there more one-handed weapons that are available that are better? Yes. Does that prevent me from using them? No.

[rijackson741]

The Greataxe of shattered hope does have criticals though, and it also has an actor condition. The BSS is just a plain vanilla weapon. And AC matters, as does monster DR. The Gleaming claymore of ruin is a better two-handed weapon than the GoSH, but it's hard to get.

The damage modifiers were not just guesses. We have a multi-page spreadsheet, with data from maybe 100 different builds, that was used to calculate them. Making all weapons equal, at all stages of the game, is really not possible. I don't believe it's even desirable.