Stone Club - Dual wield

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CKork
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by CKork »

I think it's better to have the lower DM applied, do as is. Weapons with a low one have that for a reason. Circumventing that does not seem right for me.

Taking the average of both could also be done and sounds fair, but not if you just take the highest one
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Osho
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by Osho »

CKork wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:43 am I think it's better to have the lower DM applied, do as is. Weapons with a low one have that for a reason. Circumventing that does not seem right for me.

Taking the average of both could also be done and sounds fair, but not if you just take the highest one
Disagree. It reduces the original damage of the weapon with highest DM, which is wrong. Why should A particular weapon's DM change the damage potential of another weapon altogether, and on what logical basis? It's like penalizing one weapon over the other for having a higher DM.

The issue is that DM's are getting intertwined with the attack damage of one another than a separation of the resulting damage potential, which should be then simply added just like the resulting numbers of final damage potential when wielding a weapon in one hand.

In case of dual wielding, I find two ways to do this:

1. Add the final damage potential of weapons on both hands
OR
2. Leave out the lower DM altogether and simply add the attack damage of the weapon with lower DM with the original damage of the weapon with highest DM!

What's happening right now is the opposite. The game leaves out the higher DM altogether, and simply adds the attack damage of the weapon with higher DM.
CKork
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by CKork »

It is like with all things in life. Efficiency is limited and mainly affected with the weakest link.

Simple example:
Imagine a car with front wheel drive. Left wheel has 100 hp motor and can go 100 kmh, right wheel has 200 hp motor and can go 200 kmh. What power and speed can you utilize?

2nd example. Being literal with the weakest link.
Imagine a chain. 9 elements can carry 10kg each. The 10th can only carry 5 kg. What's the max kg the chain will hold before breaking?

Many more to add.

I find it fairly well balanced and makes sense to me.
Not everything you touch in game needs and can be overpowered. It's a game of choices!
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Osho
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by Osho »

You are referring to the two wheels of the same car. Dual wielding gives you the freedom to wield any weapon irrespective of the type.

Your argument would make sense for two weapons belonging to the categories with similar composition in attributes, be it 4AP, 5AP, etc. Or, Blunt, Daggers, etc.

Dual wielding (L2) doesn't come with any restrictions in terms of which class or type of weapon you wield.

I get the sense that there are people who don't like things that seem to overpower the players, which is fine. But, I don't agree in putting arbitrary restrictions just because dual wielding a higher DM weapon results in high damage.

The current approach with the DM calculations on the damage potential aren't fairly balanced and feels like punishing the player for wielding a higher DM weapon.

This could be easily solved by simply adding the resulting damage potential of both weapons.

If Stone club deals a X damage (after applying DM) when wielding in one hand, and another weapon say, Steel sword deals a Y damage (after applying DM) when wielding in one hand, then dual wielding should lead to X + Y as the resulting potential damage!

If anyone doesn't like the X + Y numbers because it seems too overpowering then that's the freedom dual wielding offers to the player, which comes at a cost of 30 levels.

Deal with it.
CKork
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by CKork »

Well, as with the car, both weapons belong to the same body. Wielding a club and a sword is going to use different skill sets and moves entirely. You cannot maximize both while using them simultaneously.

It makes sense that there are no restrictions when using to copies of the dame weapon, but as soon as you mix it up, you'll always be more inefficient than with 2 ones that are alike, and which you can master.

Btw, the same logic applies to the AP when dual wielding..
Imagine there being a 10AP single handed weapon. Should you be allowed to swing it 6 times instead of one, just because you have a quick strike dagger in the off hand? Nope.
To me it is the same with DM.

You can have a different stance or opinion, but this is mine.
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Osho
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by Osho »

Like I said earlier, I understand if we were talking about dual wielding two weapons that belong to the same category or combining any weapons with similar composition in attributes. Like 2 4AP weapons, or 2 blunt weapons, etc. The developers can justify picking either of the two DM's if all the other attributes are similar in composition in the name of balancing or simply pick a higher DM because it becomes an easy choice.

In case of Stone club, the player already pays the price of dual wielding the weapon in terms of high attack cost (AP), then why selectively target the damage modifier due to it's high percentage?

By the same logic, the developers should also reduce the attack cost and pick the lower AP of the same weapon with lower DM.

There has to be some logic behind the changes introduced. I don't agree in selectively targeting a weapon's attribute (be it DM, Attack cost, etc) just because you are uncomfortable with the numbers resulting from dual wielding it.

Why would I dual wield any weapon with stone club if I can deal more damage when wielding stone club with one hand at the SAME attack cost?

It not only defies logic behind dual wielding skills objective but also further limits player's options to dual wielding only those weapons with damage modifiers almost close in numbers. If you pick a higher DM weapon then you'll be punished in terms of excess damage reduction resulting from the difference of two DM's.

In that case, I would switch to wielding a 1H weapon with a high DM, or a 2H weapon. How boring! 30 levels just to dual wield 4AP or 5AP weapons because high DM's normally comes with high attack cost too.
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Antison
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by Antison »

You both make compelling arguments, but I agree with CKork.
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ruleofthirds13
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by ruleofthirds13 »

i play too many mmorpg. dual weilding as same weapon. Only MU, Ragnarok and Rose Online i saw different weapon at both hand. some game dont remember...
maybe this game is old style and to be balance same weapon as dual fighting style, no dominant at right hand / left.
just i thought
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Osho
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by Osho »

Another approach to the dual wielding concept could be weapons of chouce as a main or off-hand one.

Main hand weapon would attract a high DM in calculating the resulting damage potential.

Off-hand weapon would attract any attribute other than DM. But, which attribute? This needs requires more feedback from the players.

I cannot benefit from Stone club's DM if I decide to use it as an off-hand weapon.

On the other hand, the dual wielding skill should provide interesting benefits to the players when using any weapon as an off-hand one. But, which benefits? It's again a matter of discussion.
Also, 6AP or more attack cost weapons cannot be used as an off-hand one, else they would attract a penalty of not taking into account the weapons high DM, which is basically what's happening right now.

The above changes should make it clear what main hand and off-hand weapon would offer when dual wielding, leaving no confusion when calculating overall benefits to the player.

Main hand choice of weapon would be ideal for players looking for high damage potential when dual wielding

Off hand choice of weapon would be ideal for players looking for benefits other than damage.
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rijackson741
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Re: Stone Club - Dual wield

Post by rijackson741 »

Calm down folks. We are looking at it.
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