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Extraordinary and legendary items

A place for general discussion about the content and gameplay of Andor's Trail.
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Zukero
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Zukero »

Quick note to confirm the behavior observed by rijackson.
MF Lv0 : 0.01%
MF Lv1 : 0.015%
MF Lv2 : 0.02%
...
MF LvX : (0.01 + (X*0.005))%
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
Nikus
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Nikus »

Hey guys, my first post here

Just got my Elytheran redeemer. Been farming wyrm trainers and apprentices for like 4 days. Gained 4 skill points there ( more than 12 level) and killed about 4700 of them (with 1 point in magic find skill for the last 2k of them). Will try to upload pics with total loot later..
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Nick
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Nick »

Some thoughts I had on this.

Each spawn area after 10 seconds has about 18.21% probability that a minion will spawn. after one minute there is about 70.06% probability that a minion will spawn. considering some maps have 3-4 spawn areas if you want to refrain from loosing exp due to game loading to re-kill minions they will spawn faster then waiting for 3 minutes.

Another behavior of the game I noticed. If you kill all the monsters on a map and move to another map, save the game game, load another character and play for 3 minutes save, load first game and return to the map all the monsters will re-spawn even though it wasn't the active game at the time. If you have around 4 characters going for specific items, you can just keep hopping from character to character to keep killing creeps consistently. I suggest that anyone trying this have 2 save slots for each character to prevent accidentally saving over one.
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Zukero
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Zukero »

Nick wrote:considering some maps have 3-4 spawn areas if you want to refrain from loosing exp due to game loading to re-kill minions they will spawn faster then waiting for 3 minutes.

Another behavior of the game I noticed. If you kill all the monsters on a map and move to another map, save the game game, load another character and play for 3 minutes save, load first game and return to the map all the monsters will re-spawn even though it wasn't the active game at the time.
Well, most spawn areas spawn more than one mob, so waiting for 3 mins can be worth it.
Indeed, these 3 mins are real life clock time, so leaving the map, changing your device's time to 3 min later, and reentering the map works well too :)
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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Loco
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Loco »

Just got my first RoL after 8462 imps (with MF:2)
Such a pain in the ass....

//Edit: second RoL after 9542 imps
Loco
Lvl: 74, XP: 7349489, Gold: 399885
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 2, RoL: 2, ShaF: 2, GoW: 2, GoLF: 1
HP: 230, AC: 307%, AD: 48-80, AP: 12/2, ECC: 18%, CM: 2, BC: 139%, DR: 3
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Kashim
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Kashim »

I don't know if anyone still reads this thread, but I figured I'd post to it just because I just started my first attempt to get a RoLS. Having only killed 247 trainers, 179 masters, I know that I have a long way to go, and I know that I'm new to this game also (only level 25 on my first character, just completed Black Water Mountain) but I'm curious if you guys have considered using random without replacement instead of random with replacement to calculate things like this.

When I see people saying that it took them 9700 kills to get one of these things even with MF2, that makes me think that Random without replacement would be a far preferable method.
In this case, what you do is you take the odds (1/10,000) and instead of drawing a new rand() each time, you draw your own drawRandomLegendary().
The only problem with this is that it does mean you have to store two additional variable in the character's save, but it helps a lot to guarantee odds in a way that is highly satisfying to real human players. It does make legendary drops hackable, but in an open-source/single player game, does anyone actually care about that?

If you make the sample size for the draw 20,000/(MFstat/2+1), with one success chance, then you get the following benefits:
The current odds of finding are maintained: you have about a 1 in 10,000 chance of finding the legendary on any given kill. That is to say, in 10,000 kills, you will have had a 50/50 chance to have found the legendary if you have an MF stat of 0.
The benefit here is that if you get 20,000 kills, you WILL find one. Since you just increment the index by one every time you "draw" instead of doing it the other way, and then move the success index when a legendary is actually found, the odds are maintained, and even the capability to get super lucky (it is possible that it will randomly move the success index to the next index up) but you prevent what I've heard referred to as "Frustration" which is the case where someone kills 100,000 of the things and doesn't manage to get a drop and quits and hates that you've ruined their life.

I first encountered this math after getting super angry playing EarthBound. There was a 1/256 chance of a drop, and I killed over 1000 of the buggers with no drop. I've played through the game again, but I've never once returned for that item.

Kashim Level 25 XP 300k, HP:70, AP:11, AC:161, AD:19-25, BC:26, DR:3

I Vehemently argue that the most powerful monster I've killed was a Vicious redfoot beast. Just because it had the most HP, it was definitely NOT the hardest.
I have too many characters to list them, so I'll just list my most important:
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:56034
L&E: RoLS: 2 ElyR: 1 RoL: 2 BD: 1
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Zukero
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Zukero »

This was often discussed, but never considered.
Legendaries are a reward for dedication and are neither necessary, nor advertised in-game.
I agree that the "most dangerous" kill stat is utterly broken.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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rijackson741
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by rijackson741 »

Kashim wrote:Having only killed 247 trainers, 179 masters, I know that I have a long way to go
Maybe, maybe not. I got my RoLS after only 161 kills. I was lucky :D .
Kashim wrote:I'm curious if you guys have considered using random without replacement instead of random with replacement to calculate things like this.
I don't understand what you mean by "random without replacement". If the drop chance is 1 in 10,000, and that is random, then there is no guarantee that you will ever get the drop. After 10,000 kills you have a 63% chance (not a 50% chance) of getting one, and after 20,000 or 30,000 kills you have an 86% chance or a 95% chance of getting one. The only way to guarantee a drop would be to change the probability of the drop depending on the number of kills, so that eventually it would become 1. Something like P=rand() + kills/(n*10000), where n is some convenient multiplier (2 would get the probability to 1 at 20,000 kills, but it would be very high long before that, so everyone would get the drop much earlier). Or possibly some formula that's non-linear, so that it only has a significant effect after you have made a lot of kills.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Nut
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Nut »

random without replacement means something like that: imagine you have 10000 rings in a pool, and you try one after another. you never try one twice and will have the one ring after 10000 tries at the most.

But Fortuna is erratic and not everytime nice :twisted:
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Kashim
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Re: Extraordinary and legendary items

Post by Kashim »

I've seen an excellent paper on Random Without Replacement and the effects it has on game design here:
http://archive.gamedev.net/archive/refe ... andomness/
Obviously this isn't an MMORPG, but it still follows the same format when you are looking at extraordinarily large numbers. I'm not suggesting implementing this across combat the way the paper describes, I actually find it kind of charming when I miss one of those gargoyle trainers 10 times in a row, or when one of the slimes decides to get -9 AP on me and give me insta-death (cannot swing or run away), and that would change a fundamental aspect of the game. I just sit in fear of killing 200,000 priests and not getting an RoLS. Right now, every one I kill resets the clock: I know I didn't get an RoLS this time, but I'll probably get one in the next 10,000...

Just an idea. Obviously this is your game and I don't want to intrude on your design decisions. Well, unless I decide to check out the code and make changes myself, which, depending on how stuck I get in this game, IS possible, but even then it would always be in consultation of course...

Also, wow, this thread certainly is still active. Thanks for the quick replies guys. Also, thank you all for the great work. This is a wonderful game that I'm enjoying quite a lot. While I do wish I could go to Nor City and Feygard to actually finish things, there's nothing you can do with the lead leaves a project. I am really looking forward to Stoutford though.
Additional point: It is a true feature of game design that I can know the mechanics and still enjoy the game. That's a sign of a really good design.
I have too many characters to list them, so I'll just list my most important:
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:56034
L&E: RoLS: 2 ElyR: 1 RoL: 2 BD: 1
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