Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

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Kashim
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Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Kashim » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Technically, this isn't a bug, since the skill is doing exactly what it says it does, but I think it is pretty clearly not intended behavior. I haven't seen any other forum posts about it, so I'm making one.

the skill Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 is strangely exploitable to make high AP single-handed weapons have a net reduction in cost. Since the skill calculates your AP requirements by taking the AP cost of your primary weapon, then adding 1/2 of your secondary weapon (side matters), then one can have a QSD in their primary hand, and a very high AP weapon in the off-hand, and get a net reduction in AP that isn't even possible with level two of the skill. For instance:

QSD in primary hand + Olwyn's curse in the offhand.
Two bugs are created here:
1) because the QSD is my primary weapon, I get a base AP cost of 3. Olwyn's curse has a base AP cost of 8, but since it is in my offhand, it is halved to 4, making my total AP cost 7. Adding a JoF reduces that to 6, and 2 points of Combat Speed means I get two swings on Olwyn's curse, which is not possible under ANY other configuration. Yes, I have to eat some AD and AC reduction from the offhand weapon, because of only 1 level of specialization, but still.
The same effect can be seen with an Iron warhammer in the offhand, or the Heavy Iron Club. These are weapons that should never get 2 swings, but can this way.
2) the game doesn't calculate your swings right anymore. I had 11 AP, using the QSD and Olwyn's curse in this formation, just to test that it was in fact working this way. I was able to verify that I only consumed 6 AP, and left me with 5. Further, the system didn't realize that I couldn't take another swing, and thus did not automatically end my turn, forcing me to manually end my own turn each time.

I think the skill should be changed to be the higher weapon's cost plus 1/2 of the lower weapon's cost, instead of depending on which hand an item is equipped in. This isn't a huge issue now, since no one in their right mind would use a QSD and Olwyn's curse at 1/2 effectiveness, just so that they could get a 2nd swing out of it, but I'm pretty sure it is still a "bug" in that it isn't working in a way that makes any sense, and if there are future 1 handed weapons with extremely high AP cost that might be worth the sacrifices to get the 2nd swing...
Flux
Lvl:40 HP:97 AC:133% AD: 29-36 CHS: 40 CM: 3.0 BC: 117% DR: 14
Skills: BS: 4 CS: 2 IF: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:S: 2
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:44700
L&E: RoLS: 2 Elyr: 1 RoL: 0 ChaR: 0 Golf: 0 Shaf: 0 Srov: 0 VSH: 0 GoW: 1 WMC: 0

Zukero
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Zukero » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:06 pm

Great find, and I agree with you on the solution of basing the attack cost on the most expensive weapon AP-wise.

The turn doesn't end automatically because you can use that leftover AP to eat, drink or flee. You wouldn't want to waste that, would you?
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2

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Kashim
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Kashim » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:09 pm

Ahh, I'd forgotten about being able to eat. Couldn't flee though, that would take 6.
Flux
Lvl:40 HP:97 AC:133% AD: 29-36 CHS: 40 CM: 3.0 BC: 117% DR: 14
Skills: BS: 4 CS: 2 IF: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:S: 2
Template Flux
Lvl: 1 XP:44700
L&E: RoLS: 2 Elyr: 1 RoL: 0 ChaR: 0 Golf: 0 Shaf: 0 Srov: 0 VSH: 0 GoW: 1 WMC: 0

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Schmmiiirc
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Schmmiiirc » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:04 pm

Zukero wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:06 pm
Great find, and I agree with you on the solution of basing the attack cost on the most expensive weapon AP-wise.

The turn doesn't end automatically because you can use that leftover AP to eat, drink or flee. You wouldn't want to waste that, would you?
..........or change equipment.
See the puppies scatter.

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rijackson741
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by rijackson741 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:17 pm

Kashim wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:09 pm
Ahh, I'd forgotten about being able to eat. Couldn't flee though, that would take 6.
Not if you have either the Cowards boots or the Villain's leather armor. Then it takes only 5.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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Growler
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Growler » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:15 pm

Interesting catch.. my question re Dual-Wield is this: is it worth the 2~3 skill pts for a typical, fairly balanced build?

It seems you don't get much from the 1st skill pt (applied to DW), given the severe restrictions & loss of a good shield (in my current case, a nice Remgard shield with -3 AC, +8 BC, +1 DR).

Guess I'm not entirely clear on what you gain from dual-wield..first game I've had DW as an option, btw.

Are you actually getting 2 'full' attacks with 2 weapons (assuming a 2nd skill pt applied & you're using 2 identical weapons).
If so, then that does seem worth it.. since it seems that's roughly similar to doubling the swings/damage you get with your 1 existing weapon.
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Schmmiiirc
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Schmmiiirc » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:13 pm

Growler wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:15 pm

Are you actually getting 2 'full' attacks with 2 weapons (assuming a 2nd skill pt applied & you're using 2 identical weapons).
If so, then that does seem worth it.. since it seems that's roughly similar to doubling the swings/damage you get with your 1 existing weapon.
You're still limited to however many AP you have.

There's further enlightenment here (2nd post) :- viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5718
See the puppies scatter.

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rijackson741
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by rijackson741 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:39 pm

Growler wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:15 pm
Guess I'm not entirely clear on what you gain from dual-wield
Read though the thread Schmmiiirc points to. It should be clear then.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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Growler
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by Growler » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:48 pm

Thanks for both replies -- that other thread helps clarify.
But too bad Crit's, along with a couple other attributes, don't get added (at least in the current ver)!

Still hard to calculate if worth spending 3 skill pts to go full DW cowboy? The first level is basically just paying your dues, it seems (not sure I'd even trade out my shield until getting the 2nd skill lev). And if you're spending 2 skill pts just to break even, or be slightly better than sword'n'shield, then may as well go for that DW specialization..which finally seems to kick the DW flavor up a decent notch.

Wonder if better off putting 3 skill pts elsewhere? Could keep shield (with its -3 AC, +8 BC, +1 DR) and then get, for ex, 12 AC, 2 AD & 9 BC.
Hades fire, or put 3 pts in MF & pray to the God/desses of Statistics (QM?) to Finally get a RoLS-Royce! 8-) (got enough small stones as it is to fill all the pot holes in Growlerville!).

Been sitting on a skill point for a whole level now..nothing's jumping out as being el way-2-go. :| + :?
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Re: Fighting Style: Dual Wield level 1 unbalance

Post by rijackson741 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:16 am

If the choice between dual wield and sword and shield were obvious, then the game would need rebalancing ;) (it does in fact need rebalancing, but I think not in this context).
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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