Not enough AP left this round after attacking

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Dan_W_58
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Dan_W_58 »

CKork wrote:
Dan_W_58 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:45 pm
I understand. The reason the OP suggested skipping options on last strike, I believe and share his concern, is the unintuitiveness of that situation.
If sacrificing options at any time is off the table, a more coding- intense solution, but very elegant, might be making the interface more clear, such as having 5 buttons at the top or bottom of the screen for the 5 types of AP consuming actions (and removing the status/inventory bar), namely,

Move | Weapon | ItemUse | Strike | EndTurn

At the start of a turn these icons are active. As AP's become insufficient, they become grayed-out.
EndTurn is never grayed out.
Strike could be pressed from anywhere on the screen as at present, but the button serving to show grayed out status when AP's don't suffice.
Good suggestion. Second that. Makes it more intuitive indeed
Thanks. As a bonus, there is a visible context change when in combat, with the (blue) status bar replaced by (suggest reddish) combat bar of 5 buttons. With the current interface there have been times I thought the game had crashed, and then realizing I was in accidental combat.
I'll see if I can code this myself; I need to learn Java quickly...

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rijackson741
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by rijackson741 »

It''s a good idea, but the problem is screen real estate, which is in very short supply. At the top we have a bar for AP, and below that another one for the monster HP. Below that is text saying what happened with each hit. At the bottom we have the players HP and XP, and above that actor conditions on the right. There are also possibly quickslots in the middle (I never use these, because they interfere with the limited space), in line with the actor conditions. So where to put such a row of buttons? There is not enough space left of the quickslots (well, there is, easily, on a tablet, but not on a phone).
Level:69, XP:5961483, PV:514, FQ:66
HP:224, AC:247, AD:46-58, AP:3, ECC:23%, CM:3, BC:174, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1

Dan_W_58
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android_version: 8.0

Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Dan_W_58 »

I already considered space constraints and suggested these buttons would replace the bar at the bottom of the screen, when in combat mode.

I haven't reinstalled the game yet; writing from memory.
At the bottom of the screen there's a blue bar, mostly wasting screen space, btw, with a button on the right for tools such as save game, combat review, map, etc, which are not needed in combat. On the left is a button that leads to stats and skills, not needed in combat. It also accesses items, which ARE needed in combat.
However, the buttons I suggested already serve that function. So, the moment combat begins, these 5 buttons replace the blue bar and those two buttons at the bottom.

As an added bonus, the suggested UseItem button would skip rat tails or anything you cannot use for combat purposes.

EDIT: Come to think, the AP's don't need to be shown with mathematical precision. They could be hinted at by a shader effect, a lighting and color effect on the 5 buttons. It would be much more game-like, go better with the medieval ambiance, than seeing a modern progress bar widget; and it would save more screen space.

Health bars too, could be replaced. Anyone remembers Doom? There was a picture of your character's face at the bottom of the screen that showed a spectrum of health levels. I think there was a health bar also at the bottom of the pic, but it was pixel-thick.
We could have a thin bar below or above the buttons to represent health. Possibly a single-pixel bar.
Something similar could be done for the monster.
TONS of screen space could be freed up AND make the screen more beautiful and medieval, at the same time.
Let me think...

(I miss having a computer. I could fire up Gimp and come up with a demo in one hour. I could model these 5 buttons with Blender3D, ray-trace them at 2048, then scale them down to size.)

Dan_W_58
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Dan_W_58 »

Sorry, I said the bar at the bottom was wasted space, but that was from faulty memory; it contains the health and experience bars, I just noticed from a screenshot in another topic.

So let me fix what I was saying:
Ehm.. why don't you guys enable the code tags in phpbb?
I could draw some nice ascii art with monospaced.
Anyways...
Combat mode screen suggested:


__________________________________
xxxx(monster health)xxxxx---------
All stuff pertaining to the monster
((monster action narrative))





View of the action





((player action narrative))
Move | Weapon | Item | Strike | Turn
xxxx(player health)xxxxxxxxxx-------
__________________________________



After combat, the 5 buttons scroll out and the normal (present) display layout returns.
The top and bottom lines represent the edges of the screen.
Right against these edges I'd have the health bars, probably 2-pixels thick.
Below the monster health bar, picture and name.
Below that, single line monster action text.

From bottom, above health bar, the (5) action buttons.
Above them, single line player action text.

What about the experience bar? Not needed in combat.
What about the AP bar? Gone. Replaced by a continuously changed lighting color applied to the 5 buttons. What I'm thinking is, I'll model the buttons as 3D slabs with recessed icons, and render them in high quality using a morning clear sky illumination and a dark and cloudy sunset illumination. The code can then lerp between these two renders by AP/APmax.
In addition we'd have 5 tiles, one for each button, in which the recessed icon is bright red, and the rest is transparent. When AP's are sufficient for the action of a button, this bright red icon overlay is displayed, making the ibon appear to glow inside the button.
This lets you know the button is active (available).
As AP's fall below a button's requirement, the bright red overlay is turned off.
While it's the monster's turn, all 5 buttons are off.

Advantages:
1) removes a lot of screen clutter, specially anything not pertaining to combat, like stats, quests, skills, experience, maps and rats' tails; the Item button only lists items that can be used in combat; and so on
2) makes a clear distinction between combat and non-combat modes
3) makes a clear distintion between controls and info pertaining to monster or self (top and bottom of screen; no mixing)
4) makes health bars more subtle, less intrusive, yet more accurate (longer)
5) removes the EXACT representation of AP's, replacing it with a button shading hint, which is a GOOD THING, as having exact representation removes the challenge of intuitive tracking of player "tiredness"
6) makes it clear what actions are available or not
7) makes it clear when strike is no longer available but something else still is


EDIT:
The non-combat, "normal" screen could use a re-think, too.
1) Having a 2-pixel thick health bar at the bottom edge of the screen would harmonize it with the combat screen and save space, as weĺl as detract less from the medieval look and feel.
2) AP and Exp bars are not needed. Experince can be displayed in a separate screen for stats, as long as we have a tiny icon that lights up when a level-up is possible.
3) Coincidentally, it could use a row of buttons at the bottom, of the screen too...
Stats | Quests | Skiĺls | Items | Map | Save | Etc
This is merely an aesthetic suggestion.
Esch button leads to a different screen with a unique decorative bacground, as opposed to a plain background screen with tabs looking like a business app.
4) These 7 buttons I could similarly model in Blendrr and render them into a single texture. Perhaps I could also make two renders with outdoors and indoors lighting, and switch between them as appropriate.
Last edited by Dan_W_58 on Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rijackson741
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by rijackson741 »

Removing the XP bar doesn't really get you anything, because the XP and HP bars together are the same height as the buttons left and right, which are needed.

Anyway, you are missing some things. Above the player health are actor conditions and quickslots, so the space where you propose to put the buttons is already taken. Above the monster health bar is the AP bar, which you can't get rid of (AP is too critical), with a button to the left for attack, and ones to the right for Flee and End turn. So the only buttons that don't exist are use item or reequip. It would be easier to add one more button at the top that says "inv", for inventory, where you could then use or requip an item.

Edit. Actually, you can also move, and switching between move and attack is not intuitive. Have to think about it.
Level:69, XP:5961483, PV:514, FQ:66
HP:224, AC:247, AD:46-58, AP:3, ECC:23%, CM:3, BC:174, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1

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Nut
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Nut »

Another aspect should not be missed: the translations.
The text length of the buttons varies in different languages. The more buttons the more problematic.
Nut
_____
Conina: Lvl 38, HP 65, AC 253%, AD 25-29, CHS 41, BC 119% Do 4, IF 1, Ev 2, Reg 1, Ta 1, 1 RoLS
Anwyn: Lvl 52, Nut: Lvl 61

Dan_W_58
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Dan_W_58 »

@Nut
I was thinking that these buttons would be icon-only.
Or perhaps, the action of a button could be triggrred when you lift your finger, but if you press longer than half a second it shows the button text as an overlay INSTEAD of actioning it. The size of the text then doesn't matter.

@rijackson741
It takes a lot of work to write such long and detailed posts, and I'm not sure they are even being read.
I never questioned the "importance" of AP, I merely suggested a less exact representation. To leave more to the player's imagination, make the feel of the game less mechanical.
Granted, I have no idea what "quickslots" are; but I already mentioned several times, what my buttons REPLACE, yet you keep saying there's no room to ADD them.
You are also ignoring the advantage I wrote about keeping monsterr and player at top and bottom of screen, respectively, NOT mixed. You say, "Above the monster health bar is the AP bar, which you can't...", which is the way it is at present, where AP, which is player-related, is shown at the top, mixed with monster stuff. I am suggesting a better way. The screen layout I showed, painstakingly, is a replacement; NOT an addition.
Please read my post first.

CUCHULAINN3
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by CUCHULAINN3 »

Dan_W_58 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:29 pm
@Nut
I was thinking that these buttons would be icon-only.
Or perhaps, the action of a button could be triggrred when you lift your finger, but if you press longer than half a second it shows the button text as an overlay INSTEAD of actioning it. The size of the text then doesn't matter.

@rijackson741
It takes a lot of work to write such long and detailed posts, and I'm not sure they are even being read.
I never questioned the "importance" of AP, I merely suggested a less exact representation. To leave more to the player's imagination, make the feel of the game less mechanical.
Granted, I have no idea what "quickslots" are; but I already mentioned several times, what my buttons REPLACE, yet you keep saying there's no room to ADD them.
You are also ignoring the advantage I wrote about keeping monsterr and player at top and bottom of screen, respectively, NOT mixed. You say, "Above the monster health bar is the AP bar, which you can't...", which is the way it is at present, where AP, which is player-related, is shown at the top, mixed with monster stuff. I am suggesting a better way. The screen layout I showed, painstakingly, is a replacement; NOT an addition.
Please read my post first.
It is being read. The quick slots are for i.e. potions, meat and bonemeal
LV~92 HP-141 GOLD~735, AC~234 BC~166 AD~75-87 CRIT HS~15 DR~5 PLACES VISITED~514 ROLS~1 ELYR~1 ROL~1 HOF~1 CHAR~1GOLF~1 SHAF~1 SROV~1 VSH~1 WMC~0 GOW~1 BD~1 HS~1 no item to heal nor sold any item

Dan_W_58
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by Dan_W_58 »

Gottcha about the quick slots.
R.e. my post having been read, donno what to say, or how to say it. Since rijackson mentioned lack of screen space I did a major update to my original combat screen idea to try and maximize space efficiency, saving about a third of the space, and for all that I get "there's no room for EXTRA buttons," paraphrasing.

Am I so bad at explaining the idea?

Or is the goal to get rid of me BECAUSE I bring a new idea to the table? And so no matter how good the idea all I'm going to get is a baseless dismissal of it at best; silent treatment more likely? I'm used to this kind of treatment, actually. Happens everywhere. Everybody pays lip service to creativity, but then hate anyone who actually thinks out of the box... I don't come here to impose my ideas, but if they are not accepted I expect at least the etiquette of honest feedback.

Seems to me this is my last post, unless someone sees value in my staying and contributing, and cares to mediate and salvage this situation.

CKork
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Re: Not enough AP left this round after attacking

Post by CKork »

I'm used to this kind of treatment, actually.
I think you nailed it with this sentence. It's the one reason you react the way you do, even though a high amount of people are reading and replying to your ideas.

Reading, understanding, taking you serious is different to agreeing with you. And quite honestly, it is OK to be of different opinion at times. Maybe that's something for you to spin your head around for a while.

I am sure, all you say is being read and heared, considered and evaluated. Even if not implemented right away or in the exact way you suggest it, your idea is already planted in everyones head and influencing further actions and decisions.

It would be nice to see you grant other people to evaluate wjat you say and come to their own conclusion and their own opinion without being blamed by you for everytime they don't fully agree with you.

And once again: I do agree. IF we can tidy up the interface, I'd be haopy for that. But as you have rightly been made aware of as well, there are more things to consider which you did not yet factor in or fully understand.
Andor's "Vanilla" Bro
Brag-Stat:
:ElyR x1:RolS x2:RoflS x1:RoL x2:HoF x1:ChaR x2:GoLF x1:ShaF x2:SRoV x1:VSH x3:WMC x1:GoW x2:BD x1:HS x2:
LVL 25 (+24 dmg, 2x IF, next to no quests & unique bosses, tons of unspend xp&lvl ups)

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