General changes suggestion

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
Asmodee
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General changes suggestion

Post by Asmodee » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:49 pm

First, this is pretty much the only Android game that I can play over and over, delete for a year or so, then play over and over again, so good job there. Replayability is off the charts with this game.

This last play through I've noticed something which could possibly use a little tweaking. There is a 6 second countdown timer for status effects to trigger, including healing and poison. It also triggers once per round when fighting monsters. This countdown timer is also used to determine when a status effect ends. However, this timer simply restarts when going in and out of fights instead of accumulating. What this means is that if you move quickly from fight to fight the trigger never goes off. This causes healing effects not to heal, which is a pain. It also causes poison effects not to damage, which could be used to game the system. Most importantly, though, it causes status effects to never wear off. That means that if you have a weakening or strengthening status effect on you it could technically be there indefinitely if you moved from fight to fight fast enough, which really isn't that hard to do in populated areas at higher levels. For me, it sucks when I'm fighting spiders. But I could use it to drink a few potions and game the system, going into every fight with strength which should wear off, but never does.

Say, for instance, your character has the Sustenance effect for 8 rounds. A 6 second countdown timer is started. But, before that counter reaches zero, after 5 seconds, let's say, you get into a fight. You have, let's say, 4 attacks in this fight and you go first. The 4th attack kills the creature, leaving you with 0 AP remaining and the fight ends. All of this took time, but the effect never triggered. Wait 5 seconds and start another fight and have the same thing happen and you've gone through 10 seconds and 2 fights with the effect never triggering once.

The solution would be simple. First, don't reset the timer when going into a fight. Second, each time AP is used calculate what percentage of the total AP has been used and take that percentage off the timer. If you don't want to get that complicated with it, simply trigger it at the end of every battle. Sometimes it will work out in your favor, sometimes it won't. It should be a wash in the long run.

---

One more thing I would really like to see changed is skill points. For the most part I think it is pretty balanced and 1 every 4 levels is pretty good, except for the Magic Find skill. To get a useful number of points in MF you pretty much have to sacrifice literally everything else. It takes 18 points just to get the chance of finding Legendary items up to where the chance starts for Extraordinary items. I went up 17 levels and more than 340,000GP getting 2 Gems of Warmth, and that was WITH points in MF (5 points by level 68). If the MF skill stays as it is I would say 1 point every 3 levels would be more reasonable. Otherwise I would like to see the effectiveness of the MF skill at least doubled. As it is I have to choose between using skill points to customize my character and using skill points to improve my chance for getting better gear. And there are SO MANY skills that you just have no points for. I can't not put a point in IF the moment I meet the level requirements. And I can't not put a point in Regen the moment I meet the IF requirements. That means at level 68, with 17 skill points, 10 of them are in IF and Regen. Two more are in Combat Speed. That leaves only 5 for MF IF I don't do anything else.

Personally, I would like to see the MF skill effectiveness increased rather than skill points be more plentiful. I like the idea that skill points let me customize my character, they're not Pokemon where I have to catch them all. But there are a few must-have skills, and to get even them, I have to sacrifice the ability to find magical items in a timely manner. If I don't put a point in IF the moment I can, I can't just throw it in later. If I didn't save that point at level 64 to spend at level 65 my character would be weaker. But currently IF, Regen and MF are ALL must-have skills, can't spare a point to put into something else because it's 4 more levels before I get another one.

Those two options rejected, at the very least put some reasonable point caps on the skills so that, at some point, I simply can't put more points in IF and Regen. Right now if you don't do it you're wasting an opportunity, especially with IF. You can't do it later and get the same effect. I would be fine with no cap on MF, but IF is maybe a little OP as it stands. Right now I go up 5 HP every level for free. I have never chosen to add HP when I leveled and I'm at 190HP. Maybe a 5 cap on that wouldn't be a bad thing. At least then I would have something to look forward to other than "Okay, I have to grind out 12 more levels to get one more point in MF because the next two go into IF and Regen." As it stands I simply can't not do it when I can because if I don't the opportunity is lost forever.

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rijackson741
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by rijackson741 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:10 am

Regarding the rounds issue, this has come up many times. The latest thread is viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5591. Having brought it up, Duvalon also submitted code that fixed it, and that has been merged into the master branch. So, in the next release (getting closer!) the problem will be gone.

We have also discussed nerfing IF. See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4565. We have not done anything about this yet, but the dev team is overall in favor of doing something to restrict it. That would also restrict Re.

AT is about choices, by design. That's what makes it re-playable. One time you make some choices, next time others. Also, Extraordinary and Legendary items were introduced as something for die hard fans (like yourself ;) ) to do between releases. They are meant to be very hard to get, and we will not change that. They are not necessary for anything in the game, and most of them are not even very good. They are just trophies to hang on the wall at home to impress Mikhail (and Andor, should he ever return) :D

Keep up with the suggestions though :) Suggestions are always good :)

And glad you like the game :) .
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

Asmodee
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:20 pm
android_version: 6.0

Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Asmodee » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:01 pm

That is some sweet news. The first thing bugged me, the second just didn't seem right, so I'm glad both issues are at least being looked at.

As for Magic Find, I do agree that choices is ONE of the things that make it so replayable. It really just just a good game, plain and simple. I wasn't suggesting making extraordinary and legendary items easier to find so much as I was suggesting making MF a better value. Skill points are valuable resources. When I spend a skill point I should "feel" like I got something for it. For the most part I do, but with Magic Find I'm just not feeling it. I need to put as many points into it as possible because I need to find those items. I needed two Gems of Warmth, one because it was extraordinary and a second because I don't know what it does, making it a kind of "mystery box".

I'm not saying that Extraordinary and Legendary items should be made "easier to find". What I'm saying is that the MF skill just doesn't really seem like a good deal. Every other skill seems pretty decent and balanced. With every other skill I feel like it is "worth" spending a valuable skill point on. But Magic Find is the one skill I put points into because I have to, not because it feels "worth it".

If it will help, let me explain the current fire in my brain which just won't go out until I explore it. What would it be like dual wielding Rapiers of Lifesteal? Would that be super cool or what??? So let's say I want to build a character specifically with this in mind, a PERFECT character. I'm going to need a high Magic Find to get two of these bad boys. What would my skill points look like at level 68, where I have 17 skill points? 5 in IF, 5 in Regen, 2 in Combat Speed, 1 (free one!) in One-handed Sword Proficiency, 2 more in One-handed Sword Proficiency, 2 in Fighting Style: Dual Wield, 1 in Specialization: Dual Wield. Not counting the free one, that's 17 points. So it would take me to level 68 just to get enough skill points to make him perfect with no points in Magic Find to help me equip him and nothing spent on any frills like Cleave or Corpse Eater.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the idea that I would have to be AT LEAST level 68 to make this build "perfect". That is awesome! But then I have to find the two swords. How long before I grind out enough levels to get a high enough MF to make much of a difference? 18 points to take it from .01% to .1%, 4 levels per point, 72 more levels if I don't put points in anything else. I'm just saying, every other skill is 1 for 1. MF is the only one that's .5 for 1 and it just doesn't feel like a fair return, but at the same time it's a necessary skill for the curious.

EDIT: I just thought of a possible compromise here. Only a die-hard fan would even bother getting to a ludicrous level, like level 80 or 100. What if some ludicrously high level were to trigger a better MF return? That way the build which has built a raging fire in my brain is at least something which actually could be accomplished. Right now it doesn't even seem possible without editing the save file, which turns my character into a disgusting piece of crap which I must delete.

Or even better, a "replay" feature which allows me to take some things, items, certain skills, something, from my current character and start over? A kind of reward for being a die-hard fan who plays over and over again, meaning that only such a dedicated player would have a realistic possibility of actually accomplishing an impossible build like this.

Actually, the thought of restarting my character at level 1 with even just SOME of the skills, gold and equipment I have is pretty exciting. Hell, just starting over with nothing but the extraordinary and legendary things I have would be pretty awesome. That would let me build a pure MF character, get the gear, then restart when able to concentrate on the things which actually make the build possible. Essentially the restart would be an entirely new game with possibilities only dreamed of in the previous playthrough. That is a pretty exciting concept to me.

Asmodee
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Asmodee » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:38 pm

I've found that all the items are attainable relatively easily with the kill, load, repeat method, and that is at least a little better than hex editing the file, but it still feels a little like cheating. In the long run people are going to find a way to get these things easier than simply playing straight out. In my opinion it would be better if there were some built-in way rather than having people find "cheats".

I do have one idea for this which I think is really cool. Some truly terrible gear which gives a massive boost to magic find would be cool. All of it would have negatives to attack, damage, defense, HP, maybe even AP. The more of it you put on, the better chance you have of finding magical equipment, but the harder it is to kill creatures. I wouldn't mind even seeing the gear so very bad that you could get a negative damage and actually heal creatures with some hits if you weren't high enough level to compensate for it. So if, for example, you normally did 1-10 damage and equipped a dagger which did -5 damage you would do, not 0-5 damage, but -4 to 5 damage. It might even reduce XP, possibly even cause negative XP to be accumulated. Whatever sounds like a good challenge to overcome.

The equipment could also be cursed, requiring a "remove curse" potion to remove one piece or all pieces, whichever makes sense. If the player isn't paying attention and equips too much of the gear, then is unable to kill creatures to get through to the potions or get the ingredients or gold then it's game-over, make a new character.

I really like the idea of this equipment being Legendary. It's really hard to find the first piece, but each piece you find makes it easier to find the next, but harder to fight. You could equip all 9 slots, but you would have to make sure your character was strong enough to handle it, each piece the equivalent of dropping the character by X levels. If each piece were to, say, double your chances of finding magical items (from the base, ignoring the MF skill) by the time you equipped all 9 pieces your .01% chance would go up to 5.12%, but your character would be dropped in power by the equivalent of X*9 levels where X would likely be between 5 and 7.

People are going to find a way around it being this difficult to get the "special" things. I'm 3 Legendary and 2 Extraordinary pieces away from being able to do any equipment switch-out I might like, including any dual-weild. Kill, reload, kill is boring, but it gets me the items. I would much rather see some challenge within the game itself, something really hard to accomplish, which would actually give me a sense of accomplishment when I'd finished.

But, of course, you guys are in charge. Maybe that fits your vision, maybe it doesn't. And maybe it's just too much work to fit into your already too-busy schedules. That's certainly understandable. In the end it's your opinion which matters, not mine. But my opinion is that a sense of accomplishment for completing some ridiculous task to be able to more easily get special gear beats kill/reload/repeat hands down, not to mention it gives me a whole new challenge to overcome running around with the lousiest gear in the game just to find magic stuff.

Zukero
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Zukero » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:07 pm

You really sound like you have some game designing experience.
Interesting ideas, well argumented, precisely detailed. There's some appeal to the poor gear giving some MF levels.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2

Aaron-Fawcett1
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Aaron-Fawcett1 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:50 pm

Can you maybe make the light in the caves a little brighter

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rijackson741
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by rijackson741 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:57 pm

@Asmodee, how about a potion of Magic Find, for +1 MF? And maybe a Strong potion of magic find, for +2 MF? They would last a long time, and the effects would stack, but would be very expensive. So if you grind for L&E items and build up gold, you can choose to spend that gold on the potions.

At the moment it's not possible to create such a potion, or your suggested armor (i.e. without changes to the code), so I'm just throwing out an idea.

@Aaron-Fawcett1, which caves?
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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Voom
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Voom » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:19 pm

Asmodee wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:38 pm
I've found that all the items are attainable relatively easily with the kill, load, repeat method, and that is at least a little better than hex editing the file, but it still feels a little like cheating. In the long run people are going to find a way to get these things easier than simply playing straight out. In my opinion it would be better if there were some built-in way rather than having people find "cheats".

Kill, reload, kill is boring, but it gets me the items. I would much rather see some challenge within the game itself, something really hard to accomplish, which would actually give me a sense of accomplishment when I'd finished.
I don't know about you but this sounds like an opportunity to magic find a new way to magic find that's "built-in," more enjoyable, and doesn't feel like cheating. A new dimension to AT. I like it! We need to do the heavy-thinking and discover what it is.
Voomster Lvl 23 |HP 52 |AC 173% |AD 17-52 |ECC 20% |CM 3.0 |BC 61% |DR 2 Build 2/3221/0

Voomboy Retired at 41 and is reading The Fey of Feygard
Voom Retired at 46 and took up translating

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rijackson741
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by rijackson741 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:26 pm

I would be in favor of something that meant you still had to work for it, or spend something (skill points, money, whatever) to get the L&E items, but was more interesting than the mindless grinding it requires now.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

Asmodee
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Re: General changes suggestion

Post by Asmodee » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:46 pm

@Zukero, I have no such experience, sadly. If I did I would be begging to be a member of the AT team and eagerly helping with development. Generally speaking, I HATE Android games. I play them once and, for the most part, I'm done. It's hard to find one that doesn't use the freemium model or make you watch 30 second video ads between sections. Andor's Trail is literally the ONE game I keep coming back to. Believe me, if I had that kind of experience, I'd be on the team if it were up to me.

@rijackson741, pretty much anything which allows me to get all the magic items without feeling dirty afterward would be fine. Of course I wouldn't make it too easy. I certainly wouldn't make the potion last more than a minute or two. As you said, it shouldn't be easy, it just should be possible to both build a character the way you want AND collect all of the magic items.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing the MF skill disappear altogether to be replaced by gear/potions/etc. Skill points are this game's most precious resource. MF is a waste of that resource. I now have all the extraordinary and legendary gear I need to do any equipment swap out I like and 3 Gems of Warmth. I don't need MF any more. But I still have 5 points in it.

And by the way, it wasn't just armor I was thinking of. Armor, helm, rings, boots, necklace, gloves, even one-handed weapon or weapon and shield. An entire MF (chuckle at possible other meanings if you like) set of gear.

@Voom, that is exactly the idea. Right now hunting this gear is a chore, but it shouldn't be. It should be a goal; one more thing you work toward.

@rijackson741 (again), oh, definitely you'd have to work for it. If you don't have to work for it then it's not worth anything. Personally I don't even like the idea of spending gold to "get" the items. Maybe spending a lot of gold to increase your chances some. What I think you should spend to get the items is time and effort in a specific effort to get the items. These are the hardest items in the game to get. They shouldn't just come to me as a normal consequence of playing the game like gold does. Maybe I'll find one by accident here and there, but for the most part, if I want to collect them all, I should have to make a specific effort to collect them, a kind of side quest of my own making.

Which brings me to an idea I just had that I like better than any previous idea. They wouldn't use the MF skill as it is at all and they would come in various rarities. Each Luck Stone of a given rarity in your inventory increases your chances of finding items of the next rarity up by some small amount. Lesser Luck Stones would be relatively common and having them in your inventory would increase your chances of finding Rare items. Luck Stones would be Rare and would increase your chances of finding Extraordinary items. Greater Luck Stones would be Extraordinary and would increase your chances of finding Legendary items. Maybe the would be available at vendors, maybe not. If they were they should use the normal buy/sell pricing ratio. They should cost a good amount, yet sell for next to nothing, probably.

So with this idea I would grind for Lesser Luck Stones to increase my chances of finding Rare items, which includes Luck Stones. When my chances were sufficiently increased I would grind for Luck Stones to increase my chances of finding Extraordinary items, including Greater Luck Stones. When I have enough Luck Stones then I grind for Greater Luck Stones to increase my chance of finding Legendary items. And when I have enough of those I can then grind for the Legendary items. Each stone of a given type in my inventory would increase my chances of finding items of the next rarity up by some small amount. What amount you would need to determine after careful consideration to balance and making it take a meaningful effort to get enough stones to really make a difference. I certainly wouldn't object to needing a thousand or more of a given Luck Stone rarity in my inventory before the chances of finding items of a given rarity are what I would consider to be "good". And maybe each Greater Luck Stone would give less benefit for finding Legendary Items than each Luck Stone gives for finding Extraordinary items. I absolutely agree that if you don't have to work for it then it's not worth getting. As you said, most of the L&E items aren't that great. I want them anyway, not because of the rarity label they have been given, but because I DID have to work for them; because they ARE rare and, thus, difficult to get. It's not just a label they were given.

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