Xul'viir

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
Sarumar
VIP
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 4:36 pm
android_version: 4.1
Location: www.hel.fi

Re: Xul'viir

Post by Sarumar » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:56 pm

Thystonius wrote:
sorrow wrote:When your a higher Lvl the "weaker " weapons become alot stronger due to your increase base stats. Also when you have alot of hp which comes with higher lvls then you can take more damage and don't need to worry alot about big mobs because you can kill most monsters in one or 2 hits.
This is a total nonargument. Basically you state that at higher level, you can afford to go for a less powerful weaponclass because you have enough hp, damage and defense. That does not refute the problem as discussed in length in various threads, that adding to the base AD with weapons, which grows to serious height at high level, creates a couple of balancing issues which cannot be solved within the same mechanics (insert Einstein quote here).

1. if you have base AD 50 (I am getting there), adding 1 or 10 damage through a weapon does not matter. So the nice high damage of 2h weapons will add less and less to the DPR (damage per round, defined as using all your AP). 4 times 50 damage or 2 times 60 damage, is 200 damage potential (when all hits connect) versus 120. Then add critical hits, shields and light armor stats on top of that and explain to me why I would go for 2h weapons? The only reason I would do that, is because I want to make a character that is a Dark Knight, roleplaying reasons. But the game mechanics are just plain wrong and need to be changed.

2. easy solution (conceptually, development and implementation might have more impact) is to make your effective AD a conmbination of your base stats and a percentage range. Light weapons like daggers should have a maximum of say 70% of your AD, so when you hit up to 6 times in a round (QSD), you will hit up to 420% (but I wouldn't vote QSD having 70% maximum, rather 50%). The other side of the spectrum, 2h heavy weapons, should have a maximum of maybe 350% of your base stats, for weapons that cost 8AP to swing. With this system, the different weaponclasses can be balanced independently of player level. Weapon and armor skills should extend the range of these percentages. Maybe even make AP percentage-based as well, so you can become faster with weapons and shields after training. Same with movement and heavy armor, if you are trained it should be less cumbersome to wear and use, so cost less to move woth heavy armors.
hmmm... How about if we add bonus AD baced on builds bace damage, something like:
-light weapons (barehanded, daggers, etc) = +10% of your bace damage (if wielding two both gain the bonus)
-One-handed weapons = +15% of your bace damage (if wielding two both gain the bonus)
-Two-handed weapons = +40% of your bace damage

Any comments ?
Sarumar
..dansing left foot polka with Hirathil

Lvl 313|XP 559721474|Gold 7965188|AP 3/12|AC 516|AD 161-175|ECC 48|CM 6|BC 311|HP 591|DR 2|RoLS 3|RoL 2|ElyR 2|ChaR 45|GoLF 3|ShaF 9|SRoV 28|VSH 13|GoW 1|WMC 1

User avatar
sorrow
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:32 pm
android_version: 2.3
Location: the land of the devil dogs

Re: Xul'viir

Post by sorrow » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:15 pm

I would like to see a lowering of 2h weapon AP. Something like the heavy armor pro.

Sorrow
Lvl:80 XP:9214038 Gold:1mil Hp:243 AC:301 Ad:28-49 Ch:21 Cm:2.0 Ecc:15 BC:148 Dr:3

skills:
WA:2. HH:2. CS:2. TH:2 QL:2 IF:2 REG:2 MF:5 DBS:1 2HSP:1 LAP:2 HAP:1 SREG:1
L/E
CHAR:1 ROLS:1 ELYR:1 GOLF:1 SHAF: 1

hero
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:04 pm
android_version: 4.0

Re: Xul'viir

Post by hero » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:32 pm

I agree with Thystonius and is the root of my concern with the Xul'viir. Really the only place where a strong weapon with a higher AP cost does you any good is at lower levels, where your base stats are so low that you need to extra AD to kill anything.

I think the idea of the weapons providing a % of your total AD is a GREAT idea, but I would assume the design problem is retroactively going back and redesigning every weapon and making this new "base damage percentage" a part of the equation and not the defining metric like I feel AP is right now.

As Thystonius and I both brought up, the AP of a weapon right now is the most significant stat of any item in the entire game.

To make this easy, lets assume that someone's stats with equipment but no weapon are, 12AP / 150% AC / AD 35-50 / Crit 20 / Block 80. Ignoring the additional effects the Xul'viir (for example) provides, in order for it to allow for the same amount of damage as the DotSP it would have to have the following stats:

Xul'viir - 6AP / 32% / 32 - 47 / Crit 40 / x2.0.

I'm not saying this is what the Xul'viir SHOULD be, but this would be your round by round outcome comparisons respectively between the two if those WERE the stats:

DotSP: 4 hits x 36 - 52 = 144 - 208 damage per round at 170%
Xul'viir: 2 hits x 67 - 97 = 134 - 194 damage per round at 182%

And technically the effective crit chance on those stats goes down AND you're not able to wear a shield with the Xul'viir because it's a 2H weapon (which if you equipped the DotSP and the Remgard Combat Shield [-3AD/11BC/1DR], it gives even another advantage to the DotSP)

So the problem that's been identified with the AP needs to not be recreated with another equation, like the proposed "base damage percentage" idea.

Just my 0.02 though... and I'm sure other people have brought this up in the past, but as the equipment gets stronger and stronger (because lets be honest, everyone making new areas wants THEIR shield, armor, ring, weapon to be the best, so basic inflation will continue to bloat everyone's stats) the AP of weapons will just continue to become more and more important and keep the game from continuing to evolve.

Cheers!

hero
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:04 pm
android_version: 4.0

Re: Xul'viir

Post by hero » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:38 pm

Sarumar wrote:
Thystonius wrote:
sorrow wrote:When your a higher Lvl the "weaker " weapons become alot stronger due to your increase base stats. Also when you have alot of hp which comes with higher lvls then you can take more damage and don't need to worry alot about big mobs because you can kill most monsters in one or 2 hits.
This is a total nonargument. Basically you state that at higher level, you can afford to go for a less powerful weaponclass because you have enough hp, damage and defense. That does not refute the problem as discussed in length in various threads, that adding to the base AD with weapons, which grows to serious height at high level, creates a couple of balancing issues which cannot be solved within the same mechanics (insert Einstein quote here).

1. if you have base AD 50 (I am getting there), adding 1 or 10 damage through a weapon does not matter. So the nice high damage of 2h weapons will add less and less to the DPR (damage per round, defined as using all your AP). 4 times 50 damage or 2 times 60 damage, is 200 damage potential (when all hits connect) versus 120. Then add critical hits, shields and light armor stats on top of that and explain to me why I would go for 2h weapons? The only reason I would do that, is because I want to make a character that is a Dark Knight, roleplaying reasons. But the game mechanics are just plain wrong and need to be changed.

2. easy solution (conceptually, development and implementation might have more impact) is to make your effective AD a conmbination of your base stats and a percentage range. Light weapons like daggers should have a maximum of say 70% of your AD, so when you hit up to 6 times in a round (QSD), you will hit up to 420% (but I wouldn't vote QSD having 70% maximum, rather 50%). The other side of the spectrum, 2h heavy weapons, should have a maximum of maybe 350% of your base stats, for weapons that cost 8AP to swing. With this system, the different weaponclasses can be balanced independently of player level. Weapon and armor skills should extend the range of these percentages. Maybe even make AP percentage-based as well, so you can become faster with weapons and shields after training. Same with movement and heavy armor, if you are trained it should be less cumbersome to wear and use, so cost less to move woth heavy armors.
hmmm... How about if we add bonus AD baced on builds bace damage, something like:
-light weapons (barehanded, daggers, etc) = +10% of your bace damage (if wielding two both gain the bonus)
-One-handed weapons = +15% of your bace damage (if wielding two both gain the bonus)
-Two-handed weapons = +40% of your bace damage

Any comments ?
I think you'd be better off (and more realistic) to play with the AC% and AD. Like the Greataxe of Shattered Hope, for example, could be [6AP / -30%AC / 30-45 / +30x2.0]. Think of it in terms of a real fight, if I had some giant axe and was swinging away at you, my chances of hitting you would actually be lower than if I punched you (not that I would ever punch you, just sayin'), but the damage I would do to you would be MUCH greater.

Thystonius
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:49 am
android_version: 2.3
Location: Netherlands (ikbendebob {at} yahoo {dot} com)
Contact:

Re: Xul'viir

Post by Thystonius » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:37 am

Cheers hero, I agree it is a lot of work and so it should be with a large release. But as you wrote , items are only getting stronger and stronger, which will make low level characters built and played right very powerful (the earlier you get the items) but in current system, the effects of equipment wear off with every level you gain. This counts mostly for AD, DR is still quite well-balanced with other stats (one of the reasons I still wear Troublemaker's Gloves instead of Arulir's Gloves, -10AC is not worth 1DR).

All in all, the Xul'virr could be 25 damage and I still would prefer my DotSP and Enhanced Remgard Shield.
Lvl 74|XP 7,280,442|€ 364,324|2013.08.27
HP 229|AC 238%|AD 46-55|AP 3|ECC 25%|CM 3.0|BC 140%|DR 10|SR
RoLS 2|ElyR 1|RoL 0|ChaR 0|GoLF 1|ShaF 1|SRoV 0|VSH 0|WMC 0|GoW 0
WA 1|HH 1|Clv 1|BS 5|CS 2|CE 1|IF 5|Reg 1|DPS 1|DP 1|SP 2|LAP 1

User avatar
sorrow
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:32 pm
android_version: 2.3
Location: the land of the devil dogs

Re: Xul'viir

Post by sorrow » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:45 pm

I would suggest with this weapon to put the AP cost back to 5 and put bleeding wounds back to 25% and daze to 45% everything else would b fine in my books

Sorrow
Lvl:80 XP:9214038 Gold:1mil Hp:243 AC:301 Ad:28-49 Ch:21 Cm:2.0 Ecc:15 BC:148 Dr:3

skills:
WA:2. HH:2. CS:2. TH:2 QL:2 IF:2 REG:2 MF:5 DBS:1 2HSP:1 LAP:2 HAP:1 SREG:1
L/E
CHAR:1 ROLS:1 ELYR:1 GOLF:1 SHAF: 1

only1doug
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:21 am
android_version: 4.1
Location: London

Re: Xul'viir

Post by only1doug » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:42 am

Thystonius wrote:
1. if you have base AD 50 (I am getting there), adding 1 or 10 damage through a weapon does not matter. So the nice high damage of 2h weapons will add less and less to the DPR (damage per round, defined as using all your AP). 4 times 50 damage or 2 times 60 damage, is 200 damage potential (when all hits connect) versus 120. Then add critical hits, shields and light armor stats on top of that and explain to me why I would go for 2h weapons? The only reason I would do that, is because I want to make a character that is a Dark Knight, roleplaying reasons. But the game mechanics are just plain wrong and need to be changed.

2. easy solution (conceptually, development and implementation might have more impact) is to make your effective AD a combination of your base stats and a percentage range, so for example 50 AD base and my weapon DotSP results in 70% of my AD, making my AD output 35. Light weapons like daggers should have a maximum of say 70% of your AD, so when you hit up to 6 times in a round (QSD), you will hit up to 420% (but I wouldn't vote QSD having 70% maximum, rather 50%). It is totally unrealistic that a dagger type inflicts nearly the same damage output as some razorsharp, huge evil sword. The other side of the spectrum, 2h heavy weapons, should have a maximum of maybe 350% of your base stats, for weapons that cost 8AP to swing. With this system, the different weaponclasses can be balanced independently of player level. Weapon and armor skills should extend the range of these percentages. Maybe even make AP percentage-based as well, so you can become faster with weapons and shields after training. Same with movement and heavy armor, if you are trained it should be less cumbersome to wear and use, so cost less to move with heavy armors.

3. the reason is simple: no balancing issues between low mid and high level players, DPR becomes the measurement variable to balance weapon classes themselves and realism is applied. 6 hits with a unique dagger constitute the same damage potential as a huge, fatass weapon that you swing once. Then things count like: going for 2h means getting your AC up. You don't want to miss that one swing. But the huge damage makes up for it, mostly against enemies with crazy DR (I vote for enemies with 50DR, so you need critical hits or huge damage or status effects). With the fast weapons, you could go with more defense and midrange AC, if you miss one or two hits out of 4-6 it is not such a big deal.

I hope this is considered for 0.8 since I haven't seen it applied in last huge update.
+1

I completely agree, this is why I said during beta testing that the Xul'viir was underpowered and needed to be improved.
My QSD weilding L83 character does much more damage per round with QSD than he would with Xul'viir (even the beta-1 pre-nerf version).
Lvl: 80, XP: -, Gold: -, RoLS: 1, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0, ChaR: 0, GoLF: 0, ShaF: 0, SRoV: 0, VSH: 0
HP: 259, AC: 250%, AD: 63-69, AP: 2, ECC: 0%, CM: -, BC: 30%, DR: 5

ChevYdlak
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:21 pm
android_version: 4.0

Re: Xul'viir

Post by ChevYdlak » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:35 am

Hello, I've created this sword and I didn't know anything about Oegyth Crystals.. firstly I thought that they just have very rare drop chance (I wanted to own this sword for my collection and it took me really long time to kill Hira'zinn), but after a long time I dicovered that they are limited and meanwhile I found my first RoLS, made more than 500k gold.. etc. I really don't want to start again.. but I don't have utilization for this sword, because I play my character with shield and 1h weapon and I spent a lot of talent points into this specialization. There might be 8 crystals, I spent 4 of them in Charwood and 3 of them to create this weapon (useless..) and now I have 1 Crystal in my bag and it has no utilization - the guys want 2 Crystals for talents. I wanted to ask, if there could be an opportunity to destroy the sword afterwards (and maybe gain 1 Oegyth Crystal back, for doing the good thing and after that you could buy something in Charwood and spend all of the Crytals instead having one useless in your bagpack, but anyway you'll lose 2 Crystals.. you should have listened to the blacksmith). I'm sorry about my english, but I hope that you'll understand.

User avatar
Oet
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:03 pm
android_version: 4.1
Location: Sweden

Re: Xul'viir

Post by Oet » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:55 am

ChevYdlak wrote:Hello, I've created this sword and I didn't know anything about Oegyth Crystals.. firstly I thought that they just have very rare drop chance (I wanted to own this sword for my collection and it took me really long time to kill Hira'zinn), but after a long time I dicovered that they are limited and meanwhile I found my first RoLS, made more than 500k gold.. etc. I really don't want to start again.. but I don't have utilization for this sword, because I play my character with shield and 1h weapon and I spent a lot of talent points into this specialization. There might be 8 crystals, I spent 4 of them in Charwood and 3 of them to create this weapon (useless..) and now I have 1 Crystal in my bag and it has no utilization - the guys want 2 Crystals for talents. I wanted to ask, if there could be an opportunity to destroy the sword afterwards (and maybe gain 1 Oegyth Crystal back, for doing the good thing and after that you could buy something in Charwood and spend all of the Crytals instead having one useless in your bagpack, but anyway you'll lose 2 Crystals.. you should have listened to the blacksmith). I'm sorry about my english, but I hope that you'll understand.
There will most likely be more opportunity's in the future to use Oegyth Crystals, so you might want to keep the one you have. I also kept the sword, but I am all in for dual wielding on that save. I guess when I get enough levels I can specialize in two handed swords aswell and give it a try.
Oet:
Lvl:80|XP:9214538|AP:3|HP:291|AC:351%|AD:51-68|CHS:20|CM:0|BC:135%|DR:1
WA:1|HH:1|Do:1|CS:2|CL:1|QL:3|CE:1|IF:6|Reg:1|WP:1S:1|AP:L:1|FS:DW:2|S:DW:1
RoLS:2|ELYR:1

Last updated 22/01-14

chanki
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:50 am
android_version: 2.3

Re: Xul'viir

Post by chanki » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:53 am

wat is DOSP stands for

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests