Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

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Zukero
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Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Zukero »

I know I'm not gonna make a lot of new friends here.

I was thinking about the IF skill the other day, and how it's just the one skill you HAVE to take, and take it ASAP.
It's THAT good to do it, and THAT bad to miss it, even by just doing it a few levels too late. So good that even the players making "template" saves are taking IF asap.

To me, this leads to three bad points:
- New players essentially ruin their first build(s) by not knowing this, unless they come to the forums before level 4.
- Nobody takes the HP boost at level-up anymore.
- Everyone has the same amount of HP for free, not making HP important in your character building strategy.

I know the AT philosophy is to put the players in front of hard choices that have irreversible consequences, but IMHO, this is not even a "choice" per se anymore. It's just about doing it right. And I believe that in the AT way, there are no right things to do, just choices.

My proposal is the following: IF gives you as many HP as your current level. Taking IF 1 at level 10 gives you 10 HP. Taking IF 2 at level 90 gives you 90 HP.
I could even make it: IF gives you as many HP as your current level multiplied by your new IF level: IF1 at level 10 gives 10 HP, IF2 at level 20 gives 40HP....

What do you think of it ?
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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Oet
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Oet »

IMO, IF isn't that overpowered. On my Lvl 80, I have always picked it, no matter what. But, now closing in on 300 HP, I don't need it. I will keep on picking it, just to max my char out, but 300 HP is more then enough to be able to heal each turn without being "BOOM CRIT, DEAD".

On my new build I'm working on, I'm currently level 16 I believe, with 1 level IF at level 5, and will pick IF at 20. But I will stop there, because I don't like using too much on IF when there is so much to pick. I am going quickstrike dagger + shield, so I will try kill everything fast aswell. The build does not need IF further then level 2 I think. At least if I reach level 40~
Oet:
Lvl:80|XP:9214538|AP:3|HP:291|AC:351%|AD:51-68|CHS:20|CM:0|BC:135%|DR:1
WA:1|HH:1|Do:1|CS:2|CL:1|QL:3|CE:1|IF:6|Reg:1|WP:1S:1|AP:L:1|FS:DW:2|S:DW:1
RoLS:2|ELYR:1

Last updated 22/01-14
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Antison
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Antison »

I've always thought that Increased Fortitude is over powered. In fact, when skills were first introduced I suggested we cap it at 2 levels.

I think your idea makes IF even more overpowered as it allows you the flexibility of taking it when you want it without fear of losing out on HP.
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r0tt3nj4ck
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by r0tt3nj4ck »

Here is my thought on the matter if I might share.

HP in general is horribly overpowered. I saw someone post recently that armours didn't really matter because of the amount of HP that you will have past a certain point.

I believe the op is making the case that once a player of andor's trail realizes how effective increasing your max HP passively makes you a better player : everyone ends up making a new toon. Getting it to level 5 and making a "master save" that they then fork other saves off of to try new builds. But all builds. ALL BUILDS..... start with a level 5 toon with its skill point saved at 4 and spent at 5 on increased fortitude.

I have two of these myself. I do agree it's horribly overpowered. But I also agree that your suggestions seem ( to me ) to be a step in the more powerful direction.

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Fel
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Fel »

r0tt3nj4ck wrote:I saw someone post recently that armours didn't really matter because of the amount of HP that you will have past a certain point.
That would be me :)
Fel wrote:Honestly, you don't need defensive skills such as Bark Skin, even BC if you don't mind getting hit a lot. Same goes w/ proficiencies. High HP is the best defense.
Anyway,
@Zukero:similar topic(http://andorstrail.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1607)

As for my opinion: yes, it is overpowered. I thought about it since I reached 300 HP but then I found that thread so I let that thought go.

As for solutions, well...
  • -Increase level requirement of IF(30, 40 levels, whatever is balanced), minimum level still 5.
    -Regen is dependent on IF so give Regen level requirement similar to the current IF w/c is 15.
    -Regen and CE requires 30 and 40 HP, respectively - a good reason to take 5 points HP on level up for those who want this. If not, depend on IF and grind till required HP is met.
I'm not a programmer so I don't know how much work these things require. Sorry :?

Hopefully, this won't be too much for new players or old players want to make new heroes.
Lvl: 390, XP: 1084502797, Gold: 23324139
HP: 5190, AC: 738%, AD: 174-192, AP: 4, ECC: -, CM: -, BC: 422%, DR: 9
RoLS: 10, ElyR: 10, RoL: 10, ChaR: 40, GoLF: 40, ShaF: 40, SRoV: 40, VSH: 40, WMC: 41, GoW: 40
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by r0tt3nj4ck »

Yay it was you Fel :D
I didn't mean to call you out though.
Just that zukero wasn't as alone in this idea as he thought he was.
No one really wants to talk of giving away powers.
But if we are being objectively critical..... There is a skill that you can invest 1 point in and see a constant increase in stats from.
Could you imagine if there was a skill like this for ac or BC.......
.........or crit........... *shudder*
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Zukero
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Zukero »

Oet wrote:On my new build I'm working on, I'm currently level 16 I believe, with 1 level IF at level 5, and will pick IF at 20.
See, that's what I meant. You say it's not overpowered, but when you plan a build that won't rely on HP too much, you're still getting IF1&2 ASAP. One of my issues with IF is that it is essentially a non-choice: once you know about it, it is stupid to miss it (at least for the first two levels of IF).
Antison wrote:I think your idea makes IF even more overpowered as it allows you the flexibility of taking it when you want it without fear of losing out on HP.
Actually, it gives you roughly the same amount of HP indeed, but with a completely different timing. Worse, it makes your HP lower than what it is before AND after you use the skill point. It is only equivalent at the very moment you use your skill point. This is balanced by the fact the being level 25 with IF1 taken at level 5 makes IF give you 20 HP, while with mine, taking IF1 at level 25 makes IF give you 25 HP.
The introduced flexibility implies an equally large responsibility. How long can you survive without taking IF to make the most out of your skill point ? And thus, will you need to take HP bonus on level ups until that moment ?
Taking MY IF1 at level 5 gives you 5HP, the same as 1 level up. Waiting until level 15 makes that 3 level ups (slightly better than what we have for other level-up equivalent skills), while waiting until level 80 makes it looking very good.
It adds a bit of planning and strategy to this skill.
Fel wrote:As for solutions, well...

-Increase level requirement of IF(30, 40 levels, whatever is balanced), minimum level still 5.
-Regen is dependent on IF so give Regen level requirement similar to the current IF w/c is 15.
-Regen and CE requires 30 and 40 HP, respectively - a good reason to take 5 points HP on level up for those who want this. If not, depend on IF and grind till required HP is met.


I'm not a programmer so I don't know how much work these things require. Sorry :?
You can change the numbers, the result will still be same concerning the "three bad points" I mentioned in my first post if the behavior of the skill is unchanged. IMHO, arguing that players can take the HP Boost at level up once or twice depending on their strategy is not a valid point against "Nobody takes the HP boost at level-up anymore.".
I'd love IF to NOT prevent the level-up points distribution to be more or less even across all 4 bonuses if we sum all the level-ups of all the builds of all the players in the world.

For the programming side, don't worry, nothing is impossible :D and what you proposed is essentially changing a few numbers (equivalent to 5 minutes of work).
r0tt3nj4ck wrote:No one really wants to talk of giving away powers.
But if we are being objectively critical..... There is a skill that you can invest 1 point in and see a constant increase in stats from.
Could you imagine if there was a skill like this for ac or BC.......
That's the spirit ! Also, my main build is older than the skill system, so I don't have IF on it.... :D
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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fiernaq
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by fiernaq »

IF is overpowered, don't have time to discuss further right now but I have a few ideas.
Level: 58, HP: 102, AC: 295%, AD: 46-56, AP: 2/12, BC: 35%, DR: 4
Gold: 75235 | RoLS: 0 RoL: 0 SRoV: 0 VSH: 0
Skills: IF1, Ev1, Ev2, Ev3, CE1, CS1, CS2, Re1, WA1, HH1, Cl1, HH2, DaggerPro1, LightArmorPro1, ShieldPro1, WA2, Cl2
Equipment: Enhanced Combat Helmet, Serpent's Hauberk, Marrowtaint, Quickstrike Dagger, Remgard Shield, Villain's Ring, Villain's Ring, Leather Gloves Of Attack, Enhanced Combat Boots
Last Updated: 02-Dec-2013
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by sorrow »

Well sorrow is my 1st build and I only have IF at 2. My hp only got as high as it is because I did use the hp boost during the game. To solve all problem how about this idea :
•cap IF at 1 sp. IF would add 10 hp every 2 lvls-ups. That would solve the whole over power problem.

Sorrow
Lvl:80 XP:9214038 Gold:1mil Hp:243 AC:301 Ad:28-49 Ch:21 Cm:2.0 Ecc:15 BC:148 Dr:3

skills:
WA:2. HH:2. CS:2. TH:2 QL:2 IF:2 REG:2 MF:5 DBS:1 2HSP:1 LAP:2 HAP:1 SREG:1
L/E
CHAR:1 ROLS:1 ELYR:1 GOLF:1 SHAF: 1
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Zukero
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Zukero »

@sorrow : that's even worse ! 10hp every 2 level-ups essentially gives everyone IF5 from level5... at level 25 you would have gained 100 hp from IF1 only !! And it doesn't solve the main problem IMHO: taking IF is a no-brainer.
I would like a solution making choosing IF over any other skill an informed decision, that you do because you choose to build a character that has at least some focus on HP. That's what happens with every other skills: you choose "more criticals" because you want a crit-oriented character; you choose cleave because you want a fast killer; you choose HH because you want to deal a lot (well, not that much as of today) of damage......
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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