Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
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r0tt3nj4ck
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by r0tt3nj4ck »

If abuse is another way of saying making a character and getting IF at every opportunity (requires 3 levelup points on HP)

Even at higher levels the mobs never deal in the hundreds or thousands of damage. Conversely your own signature reveal a character with 500+ HP.
When is the last time you worried before a battle?
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ctnbeh13
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by ctnbeh13 »

Usirim wrote:I have had the chance to think a lot about IF skill levels, health points and surviving the game on different Levels.
That was a partial quote of what I found to be an excellent post. I believe it was quite possibly so, as the author stated, due to giving the topic some thought that was seasoned from experience. The following that I'm about to share was something that I wrote early this morning prior to turning in for the day, but hesitated until I could give it some more consideration.

As Fel recognized the necessity to point out, Regeneration is dependent upon Increased fortitude, so in the discussion of trying to arrive at an agreeable modification, I don't believe that further discussion that omits a dependency is fully going to validate any suggestion offered, if it's only dealing with part of what is being discussed here, as a problem.

There are other points to take into consideration as well. One of those would be that thought, consideration, and group discussion, not only is behind what is currently up for debate, but also takes place regarding most development aspects of the game at a point before a new build is released. This still is a game under development, so, as often is the case, new thoughts and feelings will emerge concerning old details as new content is experienced in a newly released build. Some content is agreed upon as being appropriate for the current time, but may be also taking in consideration future changes that isn't known to the general public. Most of the individual specs for a majority of the appropriately related content is reviewed, and sometimes adjusted to better compliment the game world as it grows and evolves.

Part of the reasons for several of the game's features is to provide options and choice to the player. There have been discussions about the perceived views of the pros and cons regarding skill points, among many other topics. It's highly likely that more skills themselves will be introduced in the future. Skill points are limited in the frequency of earning them, so I would suggest to those that the thought does not otherwise come naturally, to spend them wisely.

Another point to consider is, that while some aspects of Andor's Trail are tailored to accommodate the dedicated players and true fans during the development stage of this "work in progress", I believe that we all need to be reminded on occasion that this game will one day be played by someone, perhaps for the very first time, from beginning to end, moving on from one quest, location, and battle, on to the next.

If enough people express their displeasure with how Increased fortitude is structured, and reasonable methodology can be stated to support a particular suggested change, and it includes an equal amount of thought and consideration to dependant factors such as the Regeneration skill, there is favorable chance that an adjustment will be made. However, please consider that even such a potential change may not come about as soon as many may like.

I'm obviously looking at the whole point of this in a different way than many who have posted here. I have to admit when I first discovered the topic and read through what existed of the thread at that time, I thought to myself, "Isn't this rather like being unhappy with getting a full gallon/liter of gasoline/petrol for the price, and wishing that you could still pay the same amount, but just get less fuel?"

When the game is complete, and a player approaches and undertakes their style of game play, it is my opinion that he or she will be quite satisfied with the current state of the Increased fortitude skill. I say this taking into consideration the likelihood of the amount of time spent, as well as the manner of how the game will be played versus that of the current average player. There will also be so many other tantalizing skills that a new player will most likely desire to distribute their skill points among.
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Usirim
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Usirim »

@ ctnbeh13:
wise written.


@ r0tt3nj4ck:
for me abusing something means doing something that is called cheating. Gaining IF lvl 6 is not cheating so it is no abuse having 500+HP.
If you say it is an overkill I agree on that. ;-) If I would rather think I should play with only 50HP instead I would have manipulated the saved game - I know how to do this (see my other posts concerning playing test chars). But I don't want to do so. Simple fact: I love it this way.
:mrgreen:
Usirim (v2.2):
Lvl: 200
XP: 145.569.369
Gold: 5.8M
RoLS: 17
ElyR: 9
RoL: 6
ChaR: 9
GoLF: 2
ShaF: 7
SRoV: 15
VSH: 7
WMC: 12
GoW: 6

Base values
HP: 1000
AC: 280
AD: 90
max AP: 10 (12)
BC: 180%
DR: 0
(Jun 2017)
r0tt3nj4ck
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by r0tt3nj4ck »

I don't mean the word abuse like one person doing something bad to himself/others.
I mean abuse exactly like I said. Once a person discovers IF. There is no reason not to take it.

To highlight my point and get away from personal stuff :
Excluding combat speed.
Name another skill every build has.
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Usirim »

What is your opinion about following IF modification:
one point of IF fix on startup and lasts till lvl 100, for example.
One (and only one or maybe max 2?) additional IF skill could bought - with no level restriction for this skill.
This additionsl IF skill lasts for 10 levels and a player gains +2 HP increase on level up, then the IF skill ends and has to be bought again, if player wishes to increase HP further.

Its just an idea.
Pro:
- every char gets minimum HP increase up to 125 HP on lvl 100, which is currently imho a need to have
- buying 5 HP points on level up gets more an option to consider
- the gap between min and max possible HP increase won't split apart that far as now
- faster HP increase on low lvl when one needs skills and lvl points for... whatever

Con:
- cutdown on diversity
- some high lvl Chars suffers really bad from such a modification.
- maybe some players gets so frustated they quit playing
Usirim (v2.2):
Lvl: 200
XP: 145.569.369
Gold: 5.8M
RoLS: 17
ElyR: 9
RoL: 6
ChaR: 9
GoLF: 2
ShaF: 7
SRoV: 15
VSH: 7
WMC: 12
GoW: 6

Base values
HP: 1000
AC: 280
AD: 90
max AP: 10 (12)
BC: 180%
DR: 0
(Jun 2017)
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rijackson741
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by rijackson741 »

ctnbeh13 wrote:As Fel recognized the necessity to point out, Regeneration is dependent upon Increased fortitude, so in the discussion of trying to arrive at an agreeable modification, I don't believe that further discussion that omits a dependency is fully going to validate any suggestion offered, if it's only dealing with part of what is being discussed here, as a problem.
This is a really good point. Any change that affected the levels at which IF was available would result in some players suddenly finding that when they installed the next version of the game they were ineligible for not only some levels of IF that they had taken, but also possibly dependent skills. What to do? Give them the skill points back with a message "spend them some other way"? Worse, this problem can not be avoided by changing IF in some way that does not change the levels at which it's available, but still reduces it's power. For example, a given level of IF would only increase your HP for the next 25 levels, and then it expires. But that would still reduce most players HP (that would of course be the whole point in doing it!), and the availability of both Regeneration and Corpse Eater depend on the base HP, so once again players would find themselves ineligible for skills they had already taken. I think that could, in principle, be fixed by reducing the required base HP for each skill, but then we get into the question of whether those skills are then still balanced! Messy.

Having thought about it some more, I'm also not so sure it's as overpowered as I first thought. The more levels of IF you have, the less the benefit of the next level. Everyone seems to agree that the first two levels are a must, as soon as possible, but the same could be said for Combat Speed. Beyond IF2, there does not seem to be a consensus, which means people are making different choices. In fact, although I said I will certainly take IF5, this thread has made me think hard about the merits of IF, and now I'm not so sure. I have found that lots of HP aren't that useful unless you have a way to regenerate them very quickly. So either you become a potion junkie, or you spend skill points on Regeneration and/or Corpse Eater. I think I might in fact be inclined to spend my point on a level of CE rather than IF5, so although I will have fewer HP I will regenerate them faster. And I still need to get Ev3. And I have my eye on Taunt, but I have no levels of Dodge, so that's going to cost me five skill points! Choices, choices!
Level:69, XP:6092391, PV:584, FQ:81
HP:229, AC:212, AD:57-75, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
ctnbeh13
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by ctnbeh13 »

rijackson741,

Oh how I love to read such relevant posts such as you've just offered, that seem to be made only after taking a fair amount of time to consider all points objectively. :)
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r0tt3nj4ck
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by r0tt3nj4ck »

Make late game mobs hit harder.....
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Sarumar
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Sarumar »

Zukero wrote:I know I'm not gonna make a lot of new friends here.

I was thinking about the IF skill the other day, and how it's just the one skill you HAVE to take, and take it ASAP.
It's THAT good to do it, and THAT bad to miss it, even by just doing it a few levels too late. So good that even the players making "template" saves are taking IF asap.

To me, this leads to three bad points:
- New players essentially ruin their first build(s) by not knowing this, unless they come to the forums before level 4.
- Nobody takes the HP boost at level-up anymore.
- Everyone has the same amount of HP for free, not making HP important in your character building strategy.

I know the AT philosophy is to put the players in front of hard choices that have irreversible consequences, but IMHO, this is not even a "choice" per se anymore. It's just about doing it right. And I believe that in the AT way, there are no right things to do, just choices.

My proposal is the following: IF gives you as many HP as your current level. Taking IF 1 at level 10 gives you 10 HP. Taking IF 2 at level 90 gives you 90 HP.
I could even make it: IF gives you as many HP as your current level multiplied by your new IF level: IF1 at level 10 gives 10 HP, IF2 at level 20 gives 40HP....

What do you think of it ?
+1 I agree.... This skill is too strong.
Sarumar
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Lvl 313|XP 559721474|Gold 7965188|AP 3/12|AC 516|AD 161-175|ECC 48|CM 6|BC 311|HP 591|DR 2|RoLS 3|RoL 2|ElyR 2|ChaR 45|GoLF 3|ShaF 9|SRoV 28|VSH 13|GoW 1|WMC 1
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Re: Increased Fortitude is Overpowered ! Nerf it !

Post by Zukero »

Ok, I've re-read all the posts made at least three times, and now wish to synthesize it all.

- Everyone agrees IF1 & IF2 are no-brainers, which isn't good in itself.
- The idea of "expiring" IF was the most used alteration to it, aside from simple number-changes.
- For players beyond levels 70 or more, the current IF gives ridiculous amounts of HP, even more so if the player decided to use IF3 & beyond.
- Don't forget IF is a requirement for Regen.

Although it would imply non-trivial changes to the game code, I like the expiring IF too (well, less than my own idea, but let's not be selfish).
- If we had IF give roughly 4 times what the HP @level-up bonus gives (that makes IF lasts 20 levels), but spread across level-ups, 1HP per level, I think it would make IF almost equivalent to the AC & BC skills (untill HH joins them too :D ). The 4x ratio is higher, but as it is not an immediate win, you have to wait for it to apply (and going from level 5 to 25 is not immediate, especially for beginners).
- Don't change the levels required for IF, so no impacts on regen. No change to the HP required for regen either (forcing you to spend some HP level ups for regen).
- People not heavily investing in IF will not gain ridiculous amounts of HP, making high-HP builds a true commitment to IF.
- IF1 & IF2 would give players 40HP total. You either want not much more and invest on level-ups HP, or really commit to high-HP, spending a lot of SP on it.
- The HP gains do not grow if you take IF asap (once every 15 levels): you either gain 1 or 2 HP at each level-up.

What do you think of that ?

---On to the other concern:
Combat speed is indeed another almost-no-brainer. There are cases where it is not as valuable as IF: tanks, with high BC, high DR, and two-handed weapons and AP maluses giving them 7+ AP attack costs. But the big difference with IF is that there are no other way to increase your max AP than this skill, while HP has the level ups. It bothers me less than IF.

@ctnbeh13: indeed some in-game, scenarized explanations of the game system could benefit new players. Maybe some kind of hermit living in the woods close to Crossglen that give hints (and eventually tutorialesque quests) that the player can take as some kind of mentor. He would give you new advice when you reach higher levels, like about critical hits, skills, maybe even respawns... And for later levels, get more hints from other NPCs like Lodar or students in BWM.... but this is another topic.
Lvl: 78, XP: 8622632, Gold: 271542, RoLS: 1, ElyR: -, RoL: -, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 1, VSH: 1, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 71, AC: 301%, AD: 38-47, AP: 3, ECC: 50%, CM: 3.75, BC: 101%, DR: 2
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