Skills

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
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The Gray
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 5:00 am
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Re: Skills

Post by The Gray » Sat May 19, 2018 11:03 pm

I have an idea for a skill:
Ultimatum Attack-
(Maximum of 1 Skill point)
(Requires at least level 4 Weapon Accuracy)
(Requires at least level 5 More Criticals)
(Requires at least Strong Mind Skill level 1)
Effect: If an enemy is less than 40% of it's Max HP and you have less than 20% of you're max hp, IF you're attack is successful upon the next strike, this does not work on future strikes for rest of this battle, then increase you're Effective Critical Chance by 30% of you're total ECC and You're Critical Multiplier by +1.0.

I really think this would be a fun one to add for those boss fights lol
The gray

Level: 60 | HP: 144/144 | Total EXP: 3932578 | Gold: 143077 | AP: 10/0 | ReC (AP): 5 | UiC (AP): 5 | MC (AP): 6
| AC (AP): 5 | AC: 298% | AD: 32-52 | CHS: 19 | CM: 2.0 | ECC: 14% | BC: 100% | DR: 6

Specialization: Weapon and Shield

nicfer
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:59 pm
android_version: 5.0

Re: Skills

Post by nicfer » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm

I think the biggest problem with skills is not the amount of points, or the need for new ones, but dispersion of the ones you'll never choose, and making boring ones more exciting.
For example, Treasure Hunter, Magic Finder, and specially, Merchant, are rarely used, but if they were an unique skill it'll actually be considered, even if the effects are lowered a bit to balance it (like, 30 instead of 50% for finding rare items of MF, and the Merchant part being capped at 12 in level 5, for example, since it's getting merged into other(s) skill(s) without a max level.
Other skills I'll merge are Quick Learner and Failure Mastery, perhaps Dodge and Evasion (although with my other ideas to Dodge will render this merge obsolete).

About the change to Dodge, along with other stats incrementing skills, I want to turn them from a static +X boost to a % bonus based on either your base, equipment or total stats, so if you have 120% AC, the first level of Weapon Accuracy may give you (120*1.1)% = 132%, although balancing will make that a crude example.

For Bark Skin, maybe at full level it also gives 1 DR each 20/25/30 BC (15 may be a bit OP) starting from the 75 needed to cap said skill.

Combat Speed could be changed into a attack cost reduction like JoF, but with said stat being floored at 1/2, so you don't get infinite attacks with QSD + JoF + 2CS.

For IF, I'll make the HP gain not part of base stats, so it can't be used for other skills like Corpse Eater. Maybe also add an HP requirement (30 for first level and 15 per addditional level)?

Other skills are either OK, or about to be covered later, like with merges, skill chains will change.
Beware of my bad grammer!

Main character Nicferatus II:

Lvl: 35, XP: 768414, Gold: 41437, RoLS: 1, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0, ChaR: 0, GoLF: 0, ShaF: 0, SRoV: 0, VSH: 0, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
HP: 82, AC: 253%, AD: 24-32, AP: 2, ECC: -%, CM: -, BC: 38%, DR: 7

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rijackson741
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android_version: 9.0 - Pie
Location: Somewhere in Dhayavar

Re: Skills

Post by rijackson741 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:32 pm

nicfer wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm
I think the biggest problem with skills is not the amount of points, or the need for new ones, but dispersion of the ones you'll never choose, and making boring ones more exciting.
For example, Treasure Hunter, Magic Finder, and specially, Merchant, are rarely used, but if they were an unique skill it'll actually be considered, even if the effects are lowered a bit to balance it (like, 30 instead of 50% for finding rare items of MF, and the Merchant part being capped at 12 in level 5, for example, since it's getting merged into other(s) skill(s) without a max level.
Other skills I'll merge are Quick Learner and Failure Mastery, perhaps Dodge and Evasion (although with my other ideas to Dodge will render this merge obsolete).
I understand what you are saying about some skills being "boring" (does anyone have a level in merchant?), but I don't agree that existing skills should be merged. In some cases that's because they are really different (e.g Evasion and Dodge), but also because we need a lot of skills. The game kind of ends around level 45-50 at the moment, but in the future the end level will be much higher, so players will have more opportunity to choose skills. I would prefer to make the boring skills less boring by increasing their benefit and capping them. Merchant is already capped (and IMO underpowered) but Magic finder, Treasure hunter, Quick learner are not. Treasure hunter also never gives you more than the maximum drop of the monster, so it's benefit is really limited. The basic skills of WA, HH, and dodge should have no cap.
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm
About the change to Dodge, along with other stats incrementing skills, I want to turn them from a static +X boost to a % bonus based on either your base, equipment or total stats, so if you have 120% AC, the first level of Weapon Accuracy may give you (120*1.1)% = 132%, although balancing will make that a crude example.

For Bark Skin, maybe at full level it also gives 1 DR each 20/25/30 BC (15 may be a bit OP) starting from the 75 needed to cap said skill.
This is an interesting idea, although I would exclude BS. Getting a lot of DR makes you immune to many monster attacks, so it has to be limited. On the other hand, my main build has HH 1, and I view it as a wasted skill point. If it were a percentage of base it would be much more useful. I like this idea.
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm
Combat Speed could be changed into a attack cost reduction like JoF, but with said stat being floored at 1/2, so you don't get infinite attacks with QSD + JoF + 2CS.
Combat speed is something we have to be very careful with. IMO, the QSD is already overpowered because you can get six strikes per round. There is no way you will ever be able to get to CS 1 (that is not quite true; in the next release that will be possible, but in an extremely limited way), and the math in the game is integer based, so there is nothing between 1 and 2.
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm
For IF, I'll make the HP gain not part of base stats, so it can't be used for other skills like Corpse Eater. Maybe also add an HP requirement (30 for first level and 15 per addditional level)?

Other skills are either OK, or about to be covered later, like with merges, skill chains will change.
What to do about IF has been discussed at length. See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4565. I think it does need to be limited in some way.

I think that making the "boring" skills more powerful, but capping them, would be an improvement. I also like the idea of the basic skills HH, WA, and Do being a percentage of base rather than static.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

nicfer
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:59 pm
android_version: 5.0

Re: Skills

Post by nicfer » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 am

Well, I was expecting DR to be finite. My motivation to make it uncapped was to make it more useful against crits, but the DR needed to hinder them will render normal hits ineffective. I'm thinking of other alternatives:
* A new skill that makes DR to be applied before the critical multiplier?
* Add a critical resistance stat?
* "Nerf" DR so it's floored at 1/2/whatever damage? Based on what?

On a similar note, I also tried to change the "immune to critical damage" property of ghosts/demons/constructs to either only block the extra damage part, but not conditions or triggers, or reducing the multiplier to 1.5/2 if it's bigger than 2.

Other skill that I wanted to change was Quick Learner. Instead of increasing experience gained, I changed it to lower XP requirements for the next level. Didn't work very well, since the source code calculates it from total exp and current level, and also benefits quest rewards. Maybe?

For WA and Dodge I'll make it add a percent of total stats, since doing it over base stats is just going to be "add a point every X points you add to this", and making it based on equipment is a general version of the weapon/armor specializations.
Hard Hit, however, will not scale correctly with percentages, since damage magnitudes are much lower than AC or BC, and thus it'll be either too few or too much every time.
Beware of my bad grammer!

Main character Nicferatus II:

Lvl: 35, XP: 768414, Gold: 41437, RoLS: 1, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0, ChaR: 0, GoLF: 0, ShaF: 0, SRoV: 0, VSH: 0, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
HP: 82, AC: 253%, AD: 24-32, AP: 2, ECC: -%, CM: -, BC: 38%, DR: 7

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rijackson741
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android_version: 9.0 - Pie
Location: Somewhere in Dhayavar

Re: Skills

Post by rijackson741 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:00 pm

nicfer wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 am
Well, I was expecting DR to be finite. My motivation to make it uncapped was to make it more useful against crits, but the DR needed to hinder them will render normal hits ineffective. I'm thinking of other alternatives:
* A new skill that makes DR to be applied before the critical multiplier?
* Add a critical resistance stat?
* "Nerf" DR so it's floored at 1/2/whatever damage? Based on what?
I would not choose to change DR. It is currently difficult to get a very high DR. If you look at the (old) high score list, viewtopic.php?f=2&t=327, you can get a DR of 10 or more. That is very difficult to do though, and my inclination is to leave DR as it is.

Adding a skill that gives resistance to critical hits is an interesting idea though. It could be either a percentage chance that you are immune to the critical hit, or a factor that reduces the effect of the critical hit. Either way, reduce the chance or the critical damage by 25% per skill level, so with 4 levels of the skill you are immune to critical hits. If monsters can be immune to critical hits, why not the player too?!
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 am
On a similar note, I also tried to change the "immune to critical damage" property of ghosts/demons/constructs to either only block the extra damage part, but not conditions or triggers, or reducing the multiplier to 1.5/2 if it's bigger than 2.
If I understand correctly, make them resistant to critical hits, but not immune. As above, that's an interesting idea. It would allow for more vareiation in the game.
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 am
Other skill that I wanted to change was Quick Learner. Instead of increasing experience gained, I changed it to lower XP requirements for the next level. Didn't work very well, since the source code calculates it from total exp and current level, and also benefits quest rewards. Maybe?
I'm not sure why you would do this. I see no practical difference between gaining XP faster, or lowering the threshold to gain a level.
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 am
For WA and Dodge I'll make it add a percent of total stats, since doing it over base stats is just going to be "add a point every X points you add to this", and making it based on equipment is a general version of the weapon/armor specializations.
Hard Hit, however, will not scale correctly with percentages, since damage magnitudes are much lower than AC or BC, and thus it'll be either too few or too much every time.
I much prefer the idea that it is a percentage of base stats rather than total stats. But I prefer either of those options to what we have now, which is a static number. With a static number the WA, Dodge, and HH skills become effectively worthless when you get to a high level.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

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Voom
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Re: Skills

Post by Voom » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:06 pm

rijackson741 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:32 pm
nicfer wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:47 pm
About the change to Dodge, along with other stats incrementing skills, I want to turn them from a static +X boost to a % bonus based on either your base, equipment or total stats, so if you have 120% AC, the first level of Weapon Accuracy may give you (120*1.1)% = 132%, although balancing will make that a crude example.

For Bark Skin, maybe at full level it also gives 1 DR each 20/25/30 BC (15 may be a bit OP) starting from the 75 needed to cap said skill.
This is an interesting idea, although I would exclude BS. Getting a lot of DR makes you immune to many monster attacks, so it has to be limited. On the other hand, my main build has HH 1, and I view it as a wasted skill point. If it were a percentage of base it would be much more useful. I like this idea.
I'm really glad this idea came up. nicfer, thanks for sharing your ideas! I'm quite interested in the skills, stat, and equipment upgrades conversation.

I think WA and Dodge as a % of AC and BC, respectively, has been mentioned sometime before, but it is a really great idea nevertheless.

Now, should the % be out of base stats or total stats? I believe having it out of base stats will be more appropriate because by around level 13 I can manage to attain more than 100 AC from crossroad items and level ups. That would be overpowered and would favor Offensive builds as opposed to Defensive builds.
Voomster Lvl 23 |HP 52 |AC 173% |AD 17-52 |ECC 20% |CM 3.0 |BC 61% |DR 2 Build 2/3221/0

Voomboy Retired at 41 and is reading The Fey of Feygard
Voom Retired at 46 and took up translating

ace
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Re: Skills

Post by ace » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:38 am

Merchant is not that bad of a skill early game.. I use it at least.
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