Grinding / Balancing Issue

[Kater Karlo]

Hi there,

Its my first round in AT but I like it, A LOT (for more praise see my first post !
Right now I'm in the Gargoyle-Cave looking for the RolS. I'm doing that since level 21 or 22.
If the post fits in better somewhere else, just move it or split it or ...

As grinding is an important element of AT, it's also rather annoying. It takes a lot of time and it does not help the story.
Also when your done, you have a powerfull charakter who ist at the same point in the story as he was before as a weaker char.
That got me thinking, read a lot in the forum and I have two ideas: I will use the RolS as an example, but I guess ist the same for other items.

So what if:
1.) The experience points from monsters will slowly reduce so you will not level up so much while grinding. The drop rates stay untouched.
There is obvoiously a monster-couter already implementet. My idea is that after 50 or 100 Monsters of the same kind (shadow gargoyle trainer) the experience you gain starts droping. Every 25 kills (or 10 or 50, all numbers are open for discussion) you gain 1 experience point less.
So you kill 100 trainers, you get 102 Ex-Points. For the next 25 kills you get 101 and so on. After 2650 Kills you will not gain Ex-Points from a shadow gargoyle trainer and after 2875 its the same with the sg-masters (102 * 25 + 100 and 111 * 25 + 100)
You could factor-in the QL-skill like that: 102*1,05 * + 100 = 2775 kills for L1 QL or you can add it after the reduction which seems more appropriate.
They will keep dropping gems, coins, potions, rocks and Rols with the original rate! So you get you wealth and your RolS eventually but you didn't gain 20 levels or so.
I spend 10 Levels in the cave and its rather not a challenge to kill the monsters anymore. And as far as I've read I will probably stay there for a couple more levels. I allready spend a skillpoint for MF and intend to do so once more.

2.)
So the RolS is not a Must-Have to finish the game but kind-of. The cave is accessable rather early in the game and the ring is one of the most powerfull ones in the game. So at least in theory you can get it early in the game and by chance.
So instead of chance I would prefere a quest. You have to collect several items and a smith has to craft it for you.
2a) Do a minor task for the smith to gain his trust. Or maybe get the quest from the Vilegard smith after the "Feygard Errands"-Quest if you delivered the degraded items to the guards and finished the quest.
2b) Collect 10 bonemeal potions (for the healing properties), 25 claws (for the critical damage properties), 10 insect shells (for the BC properties), 10 sharpened gems (for the extra damage properties) and 1000 small rocks (for grinding and for 2c)
2c) Bring the 1000 rocks to another smith, maybe in Loneford. For a password (you got it from the Vilegard smith) and 1000 coins he will forge you the RolS. [end of quest, no other reward, the RolS is enough!]
This way you can get "only" one RolS, you gain experience and therefor levels, you have to grind, its pushes the story, you don't get it by chance and really earned it.
The items to collect, their number and the NPC's involved are open for discussion, of course. Maybe you even need another ring and the stone are necessary for the improvement (AC, damage).
The same principle could work for other legendary items like the ElyR. A sword and basic items (with each standing for one feature) have to be forged into a legendary one by an NPC.


Hopefully I could describe my idea properly.

BTW: I would gladly contribute and do some tranlsation into german. I've seen some dialog is still in english. Feel free to send me an PM.

[Nut]

Hi Kater Karlo,

Yes, the. Gargoyle cave, many hours I spent there...
I feel like you: after getting at last The Ring, my character was already too strong to visit many other places as a challenge. On the other hand, it is a nice feeling to have it - eirher by hard work or by great luck...
To get less EP for it might be a good idea to solve the dilemma.
I myself will try next time the strategy: Fight some gargoyle men, and if no one drops any rings then reload game and fight again.
This way should be faster, because no waiting for respawn, and the EP stay the same too.

Concerning the German dialogues, they are all translated and should be active in next version.
But with next version there will be new parts untranslated. Thanks for your offer to help. We will think of you when next translation sessions will start.

[Kater Karlo]

Hello,

I've made the suggestion for two reasons:

First: The gain of levels ruin the challenge and fun later on.
I think 5475 kills in the Gargoyle-Cave with 302700 Exp.-Points from Trainers and Masters only is a lot
(calculation based on the numbers I sugessted)!

SG-Trainer: 101*25+100 = 2625 kills; 102*100+101*25+100*25+... = 138975 Exp.
SG-Master: 110*25+100 = 2850 kills; 111*100+110*25+... = 163725 Exp.

Second: In my opinion legendary items are supposed to have a legend they are based on.
So pure luck is nice, you get them eventually if you are patient enough.
But storywise its rather boring. (Sorry)
So if you make a quest, you only get one item, you dont spend days and weeks on the search for one or even more,
you do a lot of stuff, you gain some levels, you avoid this save/reload workaround, it supports the story and the myth around a legendary item.
You could for instance start dropping breadcrumbs rather early: Some priest or smith or a drunk tells you about a magic item.
Later you hear more, like its made out of this and that. And in the end if you bring the "components" to a smith or a shrine
and the legandary item ist forged.
If you want I would gladly outline a quest for the RolS. As you can see I have some ideas allready.

[Voom]

Second: In my opinion legendary items are supposed to have a legend they are based on.
So pure luck is nice, you get them eventually if you are patient enough.
But storywise its rather boring. (Sorry)

If you want I would gladly outline a quest for the RolS. As you can see I have some ideas allready.

I think it is an excellent idea. Surely, it would add a little more mysteriousness and adventure.

If you want a quest to be implemented, make it and check out the thread that specifies what to do concerning quest-making. I say go for it.

[Zukero]

Once again, changing the conditions for obtaining a RoLS will not be considered. It is a great item, but it is not necessary, and there are good alternatives already.
A quest giving hints about its existence and location is considered though (I have an outline somewhere in my email history).
This is also valid for all other L&E items.

However, there are some good ideas there: giving an XP malus for frequently killed monsters is fine, along with AC/AD bonus to compensate.
After all, it makes sense that after killing 1000 puppies, there's not much left to learn about puppy-killing, but you sure know how to do it well.

[Kater Karlo]

Hi there,

I've read you notion about the RolS, Zukero and I've read your "Contributing to Andor's Trail"-Thread.
Maybe you can just give me a feedback to the idea in general and to my approach.
Because the idea is stuck in my brain and I have to get it out!

This quest is written for getting the Ring of lesser Shadows. I take it as an example because I’m not that far in the game
(I have completed only 23 quests (thanks to the statistics department)) and can only use what I have seen so far.
And I didn’t come across any other L&E item.
This quest is meant to be more like a template. NPCs, places, numbers, dialogs and such can of course be adjusted even to fit for other L&E items.
My comments, annotations, descriptions and so on are in brackets [...].
The quest follows roughly this line:

Item is mentioned, several hint of it are found at different locations, more information are revealed by NPCs, an NPC with detailed knowledge describes what is needed, the “ingredients” have to be gathered, it has to be found.

! MAJOR SPOILER ALERT ! (Dear fellow mortals: Maybe let the dev's and admins check it first and take it out if they think its called for)

First mentioning:

Gruil (Crossglen Hall): [when contacted for the first time] “Oh, another one who searches for the mystical thing…”
Player: “What are you talking about?”
Gruil: “Oh, nothing, nothing. Just muttering into my beard” [normal dialog with Gruil starts]

Second mentioning:

Erinith (Wild northeast of Crossglen): [Change dialog when Erinith describes how he got into his calamity] “I was on the run from wild beasts.
They chased me but I could hid here.“
Player: “What were you doing out here?“
Erinith: “I was looking for an item that is spoken of only in legends. If you help me I tell you more.

[Quest “Deep wounds”]

Erinith: ” Thank you, my wounds are healing. But I think I have to give up now. My injuries are to severe and I’m not getting any younger.
I’m searching for this item for a long time already but I never figured out where it is hidden. Its supposed to be hidden at a holy shrine in a
temple. But the temple got overpowered by dark forces. The ancient texts I studied describe the attackers as monsters with a skin hard as stone
and they could not be defeated by the knights of the temple. After centuries the temple got swallowed by the rock it was build upon.
I don’t even know what it is exactly. I will return to my village as soon as my wounds allow it. Maybe someone else has more luck.”

The quest starts:

Nocmar (Fallhaven): [after giving the quest “Lost treasures” ] “So much knowledge gets lost because of them. My craft, the healing of Tharal
and other things. Ask Unnmir.”
Unnmir (Fallhaven barn): [after talking to Nocmar] “Lots of old recepies are getting lost and forgotten not only by the strict ruling of Feygard
but they play their part. There is this powerful healing potion for instance. Or this mystical ring. Old tales say you can summon this ring at a
shrine but its protected by stone creatures. The old texts are rather cryptic there. You need six ingredients to summon it.
I know only two of them and one more you will receive if you pass the test of the shrine itself. [Unnmir hands over 2x “Part of Recipe”]
The rest of the recipe is lost already. Look for it below the surface of the earth. Maybe you can find it. And look out for the stone creatures!”

[Quest “mystic ring” starts]

[There are five “Part of Recipe”. They look like sheets of paper in the inventory. If clicked on it says: “Part 1: 10 bonmeal potions”,
they represent the healing effect, “Part 2: 25 claws”, they represent the critical damage, “Part 3: 10 insect shells”, they represent the block
chance, Part 4: 10 sharpened gems”, they represent the extra damage, “Part 5: 1000 small rocks”, they represent ore and the general effort. All gargoyles but the ash gargoyles can drop “small rocks” at a 25% chance. Shadow gargoyle Master and trainer can drop “small rocks” at a 25% chance. There are three pieces of the recipe left: One is dropped by the gargoyle next to the Ghost of Luthor, one is dropped by a gargoyle in the cellar of Flagstone Prison in the room before the Winged demon and one is found at the grave beneath the Haunted House northwest of Fallhaven. The way to the Gargoyle-cave can be seen from the road as well as the gargoyles watching over it. By now the player should get the hint with the stone creatures and the hint from Alynndir at the Road House stays the same.]

Maelveon: [after his goosebumps-causing sounds] “Are you worthy to wear the mystical Ring of lesser Shadows?
The shrine is right behind me but you lack at least one last item to summon it and I will not give it to you!”

[Maelveon attacks Player and is killed. Maelveon drops “Heavy, rusty Ring”. Player aproches the shrine]
Shrine: “You have proven worthy to receive what only I can offer. Give me the elements you gathered!”
[If not all of the items are collected jet the shrine speaks.]
Shrine: “Come back when you have all that is needed!”
[If everything is there the shrine speaks]
Shrine: “In light of your effort you shall receive this legendary Ring!”
[Player receives the Ring of lesser Shadows and all health is restored. End of Quest]

I hope you like it, can give me some feedback and maybe its worth discussing about.
And a Happy New Year, by the way!

[Firefly84]

I like your idea. But I would give the reciepes to minibosses like the one in the snake cave, pack leader...
And they should be written in a forgotten language and a "dictionary" could be found in Vacor's cave. So you can't forge them too early.
But I wouldn't use ingredients for the legendaries that are already used in potions (Lodar and Remgard).
More shrines could be the Kazaul temple, ithan cave, Loneford cave, Trial by Fire mines.

When I understand Zukero right, the legendaries and their drop chance won't be changed.

[Zukero]

When I understand Zukero right, the legendaries and their drop chance won't be changed.

Yup, but giving clues through quests is something I'd like too. The cryptic system works fine too. We could imagine the player finding some text written in Kazaulean language (as depicted in some existing quests), and through some notes and papers scattered around the world, get translations for the words one by one, and, using real-life pen and paper, end up translating the whole text, which in turn, gives strong clues about the location of one of the L&E items.

Your quest sketch looks fine for a first draft though (we can discuss it further if you decide to open a dedicated thread, as we're getting off-topic here), and I see no reason not to keep it up, despite the reward being something else than the RoLS. It could still be an interesting ring that we have yet to create.

As we like choices in AT, that "rusty ring" could be revived in two different shrines, requiring different offerings to complete, ending up with two different but comparable rings...


Warning, potential spoiler about hypothetically potential future content:

My first sketch I mentioned in my previous post saw the player having the chance of obtaining one of two "poems", which were actually riddles about the RoLS, if the player finishes the quest in the best way, or about I-don't-remember-which extraordinary item, if the player tries to "cheat" a little by being cheap.

[rijackson741]

IMO any quest that has a reward of such a nice item should be a very long, very difficult quest. But how about if instead of getting the item as the reward, you just get the name of a NPC that has something very nice for sale. When you know the name, the NPC will talk to you, and offer to sell the item to you. For a really shocking price, say 35,000 GP . So now you have to go and grind anyway, to get the gold to pay for it. At least you are guaranteed to get it at some known point though, and you can grind anywhere you wish to get the cash.

[Kater Karlo]

Hi,
sorry for getting back to you with such a delay.
I would like to keep the idea in mind but need a little (actually a lot) more knowlage about the world.
I like the two-shrines-version very much.
@ rijackson: I would'nt make a legendary item for sale even for a very high price. Imho, you have to find those thing or rip them out of some just slayed monster claw.
Thank you for your feedback.