End round at end of combat

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rijackson741
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by rijackson741 » Tue May 23, 2017 2:32 pm

Duvalon wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 1:12 pm
Regen is already a bit of an oddball because it doesn't apply in combat, or when otherwise adjacent to a monster.
True. It was nerfed in 0.6.12 for a reason. Changing it back could make it overpowered again. I guess a key question here is whether it is just overpowered relative to CE, or overpowered relative to everything. If it's just Re vs CE that's a problem then making Re act every round and increasing the benefit of CE could work.
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Duvalon
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Duvalon » Tue May 23, 2017 3:33 pm

Both. It's complicated.

The change I'm proposing makes sustenance from bread/meat/perch/etc. act faster. This makes them more efficient at healing in time. However these have a finite number of rounds so their healing power per unit isn't increased. In a situation where there's an over abundance of say meat, and the player is very good at constantly eating, then yes, it raises the healing power of sustenance versus regeneration and corpse eater. Note however the two conditions necessary which are dependent on the player skill, and item (opportunity) cost. And also that it makes conditions like food poisoning more effective (in time; still finite number of rounds).

If we were to make regen tick, it would raise the effectiveness of the skill versus everything because it's automatic, free (once you have it, versus food) and infinite. That I think is above and beyond the gain to food items. And as noted by Voom, the contrast is particularly important versus corpse eater because now it would become clearly superior.

All things considered, I would prefer to leave regen and CE as is, even with the change.

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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Voom » Tue May 23, 2017 5:01 pm

rijackson741 wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 12:41 pm
Zukero wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 12:10 pm
I have an issue with this. I breaks the consistency of what a round is.
I agree. If Re is advertised as +1 HP per round, that's what it should be. IMO, everything that is "per round' should be executed at the end of a round, no matter how the round ends. If that makes CE under powered, then we adjust CE.
I disagree. There is no rule against making exceptions. Two factors we need to consider: the wording of the Regen skill and its intent. Regen might say "every round", but, realistically, isn't Regen typically only outside of combat? Even in most games that I have played there is at least a short delay directly after combat before Regen begins. So what is the intention of Regen? This is the underlying issue.

Corpse Eater is distinct from Regen in that HP is gained once a monster is killed rather than at the end of every round (when Regen activates in combat as well). Once you make that distinction one can easily see that Corpse Eater's usefulness is limited by the smaller opportunity to fight multiple monsters simultaneously and the character's AP. And thus it would unduly discriminate against characters with high Attack Cost and be limited to safely less than 50% of all combat in AT. Regen completely trumps Corpse Eater outside of those conditions and thus would be overpowered.

In my opinion:
-Regeneration should start to heal 6 seconds after the end of combat.
-Corpse Eater should dominate in healing (out of the two skills) within combat.
-Sustenance should activate every round, literally.
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Duvalon
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Duvalon » Tue May 23, 2017 6:42 pm

Voom wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 5:01 pm
In my opinion:
-Regeneration should start to heal 6 seconds after the end of combat.
-Corpse Eater should dominate in healing (out of the two skills) within combat.
-Sustenance should activate every round, literally.
I apologise for my tendency to ramble on. In case I wasn't clear, this is exactly what I'm trying to achieve.

For the git-inclined, I have a fork of Zukero's repository (github.com/dacmot/andors-trail) with a branch called end_of_combat_ends_round with the necessary changes to implement this.

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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by rijackson741 » Wed May 24, 2017 1:26 am

After discussion, I am in favor of this change, if I've got it right:

Actor conditions inflicted on the player will be worse, for the player, but only in the case of continuous combat.
Actor conditions inflicted on the monster will also be worse, for the monster (although that's less likely to happen, because few weapons have such effects).
Sustenance will be better, although only in the case of continuous combat.
Regeneration and Corpse Eater will be unaffected.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Duvalon » Wed May 24, 2017 2:10 am

Yes, that is (mostly) correct. For the first one, it's not just continuous combat, but any combat really. If you don't fight, it just ticks every 6 seconds. If you fight you get a tick at the end of combat, as you would for other combat rounds.

Doing some extra testing, I've also found a flaw this change would correct: fleeing combat resets round timers without applying actor conditions on either players or monsters. With the change, actor conditions (and sustenance, but not regen) will tick when fleeing. I guess that opens a bit of a sustenance speedup hack (attack-flee repeatedly), but given the risk of loosing first strike, cost of food and the finite nature of their sustenance, I think I'd be ok with it. I also think it would be annoying enough to discourage most people from doing it too much.

I guess this might help see the changes better:
https://github.com/Zukero/andors-trail/pull/30/files

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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Duvalon » Wed May 24, 2017 2:28 am

Finally, I also added this line in there:

Code: Select all

world.model.worldData.tickWorldTime();
In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned that fighting seemed to slow down time. That is because resetting the round timers will prevent the world time from ticking as usual. So if you fight quickly enough, (engage new foe before 6 seconds), you can essentially stop time. That is why if you go fast enough say in the snake cave, or gargoyle cave, it takes forever for monsters to respawn. Longer than the 3 minutes it's supposed to take.

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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by nyktos » Wed May 24, 2017 4:07 am

nice!!

this is fantastic! :D
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Voom » Wed May 24, 2017 4:13 pm

Yeah, good thinking Duvalon. So the changes you made will allow all conditions to tick at the end of combat including when fleeing? That sounds consistent. As far exploiting the fleeing-sustenance strategy, I always found it annoying but it seems that a lot of players do it often without the benefit. There will be more of an incentive now. I'm fine with it though.

As far as time elapsing while in combat, I think it will be a headache to solve. To be honest, it is unnecessary unless you want it very realistic. Now that I think about it don't some creatures move even while the character is still in combat? Flys?
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Re: End round at end of combat

Post by Tomcat » Wed May 24, 2017 4:37 pm

I have never used CE, but I always assumed its main usefulness was getting the boost in the middle of combat against multiple creatures, when Regen is on hold.
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