Special Weapons

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
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rijackson741
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Re: Special Weapons

Post by rijackson741 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:45 pm

Well, first off, you only get the AC benefits you calculate if you spend two extra skill points on Dagger proficiency, but there is a price for that: you don't get to spend the skill points on something else. But if you do that, then the BW dagger does give AC 142. BSS gives you AC 153 though (but not the BC of course), and an additional 4-12 AD per hit, which means an additional 16-48 AD per round. That's without crits. If you use DoSP with BSS, you get a huge crit bonus, which is not possible with the BW daggers. If you use the BW poisoned daggers you get 166 AC, but no block chance and the BSS still has higher damage (plus crits if you use DoSP). You do get the weak poison effect, but it's only x1 so it's not very useful. I disagree that the BW sword is better than the BSS. It's attack cost is higher, so you only get 3 attacks per round, rather than 4. That is a huge loss, because you lose not just the 6-14 AD from one strike the BSS swords, but also all your AD from other sources too (for my main build that's about 55 AD!).

Th cap is a very good cap, although of course only if you are all in with the rest of the set. The armor is not that great though. It has a high BC, and 1DR, but nothing else. I think Serpent's hauberk, Lightweight splint mail, or Shadowstalker are all contenders to be a better choice.

And none of the attack chances above are changed in a good way by getting the new gloves or boots. Both do give a good BC (in line with the rest of the BW set), but the gloves will cost you AC, and the boots give you nothing other than BC.

So yes, the BW set is a good set. It's meant to be. But pieces of it are useless, so it's an all or nothing deal (or almost all, taking most of it can yield a very good build). You get a very high BC, a very high AC if you go all in with the skill points, but for that you have to give up a lot of flexibility in what you choose to equip, you can't use those skill points for something else, and your crits are completely nerfed.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

lakra
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android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Special Weapons

Post by lakra » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:07 pm

You are absolutly correct, bw sword lacks the attacks per round in comparision to the bss.

But, as stated out, the combination of bw daggers, bw leather armor and cap is the strongest non critical option, useful for Lodars Cave or any other caves, where you meet crit immunes. The armors you stated out are very good -I use them for most of the game, too. But not in the end game, where the best option to level you character is Lodars Cave.

The point, that single pieces of bw set are useless is a point I don't understand, because in many other threads it is written, that this is a set -you need to use most of the parts, to be useful. And it is already a very powerful option, even without additional parts (my main concern is, that with boosting this set, we will lack more useful alternatives for the late game).

The other thing is, you don't really need to give up flexibility, because you can decide easily, when you have to rely on critical damage or on an option for enemies, which are immune. BW set is relatively cheap and only requires some clicks before entering combat to be refitted.
lakra
Lvl: 76 XP: 7890637 AP: 12/3 HP: 249 AC: 394% AD: 58-65 CHS: -29 BC: 140% DR: 3
Skills: WA: 1 Do: 1 MC: 1 CS: 2 CE: 1 IF: 5
Reg: 1 WP:Da: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:L: 3 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1
RoLS: 1
Status Effects: SR

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rijackson741
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Re: Special Weapons

Post by rijackson741 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:13 pm

Well, don't worry. If the BW set is so powerful that everyone starts using it, I will nerf it :lol: :twisted:

If I were to get the new boots and gloves instead of what I have now, I would get 15 BC and 3HP (for what that's worth, which is not much) more, but 12 AC and 4 CS less (not including the effects of BW misery).

If you really want BC, I think going for heavy armor and plowing skill points into heavy armor proficiency might be a better choice. With 4 levels of heavy armor proficiency the attack speed and movement penalties are wiped out, and that would make Shadowstalker by far the best armor in the game.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

lakra
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:14 am
android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Special Weapons

Post by lakra » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:26 am

Well, don't worry. If the BW set is so powerful that everyone starts using it, I will nerf it :lol: :twisted:
:lol:
If I were to get the new boots and gloves instead of what I have now, I would get 15 BC and 3HP (for what that's worth, which is not much) more, but 12 AC and 4 CS less (not including the effects of BW misery).
Sounds like you switched Trouble Makers Gloves and the remgard boots for that. Are the 15 BC with Light Armor Skill?`
If you really want BC, I think going for heavy armor and plowing skill points into heavy armor proficiency might be a better choice. With 4 levels of heavy armor proficiency the attack speed and movement penalties are wiped out, and that would make Shadowstalker by far the best armor in the game.
Hm, that might be for Shadow Stalker, but in my oppinion we are still lacking a round complete gear setup for heavy armor (most of the "special" helmets, gloves and boots are light armor. And you have to invest one more skill point in comparision to light armor.

I might give it a try with a sword / shield combination.

What would be awesome for the future is a good necklace as alternative for Jewel of Fallhaven / Marrowtaint.
lakra
Lvl: 76 XP: 7890637 AP: 12/3 HP: 249 AC: 394% AD: 58-65 CHS: -29 BC: 140% DR: 3
Skills: WA: 1 Do: 1 MC: 1 CS: 2 CE: 1 IF: 5
Reg: 1 WP:Da: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:L: 3 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1
RoLS: 1
Status Effects: SR

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rijackson741
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Re: Special Weapons

Post by rijackson741 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:13 pm

lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:26 am
Sounds like you switched Trouble Makers Gloves and the remgard boots for that. Are the 15 BC with Light Armor Skill?`
Yes, you are correct about the equipment. Also that I did not take into account light armor skill, so I would get 19 BC with the BW gear.

However good the BW gear is, I view it as a dead end. As the game is developed more equipment will become available, and if you have the BW gear it really limits your ability to pick and choose gear that boosts your stats in the way you want.
lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:26 am
If you really want BC, I think going for heavy armor and plowing skill points into heavy armor proficiency might be a better choice. With 4 levels of heavy armor proficiency the attack speed and movement penalties are wiped out, and that would make Shadowstalker by far the best armor in the game.
Hm, that might be for Shadow Stalker, but in my oppinion we are still lacking a round complete gear setup for heavy armor (most of the "special" helmets, gloves and boots are light armor. And you have to invest one more skill point in comparision to light armor.
Yes, I have to agree with you regarding heavy armor. Maybe I should look at the new equipment available for 0.7.2, and make some adjustments so that there are some better heavy armor options. :geek:
lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:26 am
What would be awesome for the future is a good necklace as alternative for Jewel of Fallhaven / Marrowtaint.
I added one for 0.7.2 that should at least be tempting, but lowering attack cost by 1AP is such a huge buff it's difficult to choose anything else. It makes every necklace other than JoF or Marrowtaint effectively useless. I am inclined to change the attack cost reduction to a non-stacking actor condition. Then we could have a much wider range of items that would give you that 1AP reduction, but you could only get it once.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

lakra
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:14 am
android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Special Weapons

Post by lakra » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:14 pm

Yes, I have to agree with you regarding heavy armor. Maybe I should look at the new equipment available for 0.7.2, and make some adjustments so that there are some better heavy armor options. :geek:
There are already interesting options, like the worn plated gloves. Maybe something similar to the bw equipment with some effects per hit.
And probably the option to get the set items only per grinding and not make them able to be bought on shops. (a positive set effect would also be nice :) )
I added one for 0.7.2 that should at least be tempting, but lowering attack cost by 1AP is such a huge buff it's difficult to choose anything else. It makes every necklace other than JoF or Marrowtaint effectively useless. I am inclined to change the attack cost reduction to a non-stacking actor condition. Then we could have a much wider range of items that would give you that 1AP reduction, but you could only get it once.
I don't fully agree with you here. The ap reduction is only so strong, because there are so many strong items wich can be brought to 4 attacks per round.
If you look at the two-handed weapons, there could be very strong options without the need of ap reduction, p.a. xulvir. If those weapons would have a higher damage, they would be a serious alternative to the weaker weapons, which do more hits per round. With 6AP per attack you don't benefit from the ap reduction very much, so you could need a better necklace (maybe with + to ac and heal per hit). In combination with a strong heavy armor setup, the lower ap necklaces would only be needed to compensate the ap malus on heavy armor, until you skilled out the ha skill. After that, you could switch to the "final" necklace.
However good the BW gear is, I view it as a dead end. As the game is developed more equipment will become available, and if you have the BW gear it really limits your ability to pick and choose gear that boosts your stats in the way you want.
Well, in my oppinion it will stay for a long time as one of the best mid-late game sets, as long as you don't create more "overpowered" items, which would only make sense, if there is a serious competion included ;)
lakra
Lvl: 76 XP: 7890637 AP: 12/3 HP: 249 AC: 394% AD: 58-65 CHS: -29 BC: 140% DR: 3
Skills: WA: 1 Do: 1 MC: 1 CS: 2 CE: 1 IF: 5
Reg: 1 WP:Da: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:L: 3 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1
RoLS: 1
Status Effects: SR

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rijackson741
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Re: Special Weapons

Post by rijackson741 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:49 am

lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:14 pm
Yes, I have to agree with you regarding heavy armor. Maybe I should look at the new equipment available for 0.7.2, and make some adjustments so that there are some better heavy armor options. :geek:
There are already interesting options, like the worn plated gloves. Maybe something similar to the bw equipment with some effects per hit.
And probably the option to get the set items only per grinding and not make them able to be bought on shops. (a positive set effect would also be nice :) )
Yes, the gloves are interesting. The best heavy boots are OK, but no more than that. The best heavy helm, on the other hand, is not exactly inspiring :|
lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:14 pm

I don't fully agree with you here. The ap reduction is only so strong, because there are so many strong items wich can be brought to 4 attacks per round.
If you look at the two-handed weapons, there could be very strong options without the need of ap reduction, p.a. xulvir. If those weapons would have a higher damage, they would be a serious alternative to the weaker weapons, which do more hits per round. With 6AP per attack you don't benefit from the ap reduction very much, so you could need a better necklace (maybe with + to ac and heal per hit). In combination with a strong heavy armor setup, the lower ap necklaces would only be needed to compensate the ap malus on heavy armor, until you skilled out the ha skill. After that, you could switch to the "final" necklace.
Yes, this is a known problem. The lower attack cost weapons are so superior compared to the high attack cost weapons, the high attack cost weapons are usually ignored by most players (with a few exceptions: see here for an example viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5733). There is a project to fix this, but it was put on the back-burner for the release of 0.7.2. That release is now very close, so the rebalancing project is back on the radar again. It's a very big project though, which will require a lot of work.
lakra wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:14 pm
Well, in my oppinion it will stay for a long time as one of the best mid-late game sets, as long as you don't create more "overpowered" items, which would only make sense, if there is a serious competion included ;)
The goal is to provide choices, where it is never clear to the player which choice is best. We do not want there to be a "final necklace", or a final anything else. Just choices, where one choice is not better or worse than the others, just different. In practice that is hard to achieve, but that is the goal. :)
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

lakra
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:14 am
android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Special Weapons

Post by lakra » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:43 pm

Yes, the gloves are interesting. The best heavy boots are OK, but no more than that. The best heavy helm, on the other hand, is not exactly inspiring :|
Well, that's right. So give heavy armor a bit of love :) . I guess it wouldn't need that much of work, if you stick to the tanking aspect of it (BC, HP).

A nice idea are the gloves which add damage per strike (heavy fists, more energy from swinging) -you could probably extend those things for a bare handed playing option (like unarmored combined with heavy gloves as "weapon").
Yes, this is a known problem. The lower attack cost weapons are so superior compared to the high attack cost weapons, the high attack cost weapons are usually ignored by most players (with a few exceptions: see here for an example viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5733). There is a project to fix this, but it was put on the back-burner for the release of 0.7.2. That release is now very close, so the rebalancing project is back on the radar again. It's a very big project though, which will require a lot of work.
Indeed... because you would probably have to touch the whole balancing system. Maybe it would be an option to think about the whole damage calculating thing -to see weapons more as a multiplier, then an absolute addition. You could also remove the multiplier by different types of enemies (small weapons are ineffective against big opponents, big weapons are ineffective against small opponents -to implement a simple rock, paper, siccsor -I'm really not a very good writer in english language, but how on earth is this word written??? in german language, it is just Schere... :cry: )

I'm looking forward, if you ever ask for support and would gladly like to help your team or at least support you with some ideas.
The goal is to provide choices, where it is never clear to the player which choice is best. We do not want there to be a "final necklace", or a final anything else. Just choices, where one choice is not better or worse than the others, just different. In practice that is hard to achieve, but that is the goal. :)
I don't see it that way -if you play a game, where grinding is such a huge aspect of leveling, getting rich and get items, I think there should be a "strongest" equipment for many purposes. You already got DoSP (Highest Critical Damage and chance) and some others. I think the art is to offer useful, but not too strong items to reach the possibility to capture those items, so the game stays a challenge, but not gets too frustrating (like Flagstone's Pride -great sword; Quick Strike Dagger -great, but overpowered dagger; Hardened Leather Shirt -awesome starter armor; Irogotus Necklace and so on).
lakra
Lvl: 76 XP: 7890637 AP: 12/3 HP: 249 AC: 394% AD: 58-65 CHS: -29 BC: 140% DR: 3
Skills: WA: 1 Do: 1 MC: 1 CS: 2 CE: 1 IF: 5
Reg: 1 WP:Da: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:L: 3 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1
RoLS: 1
Status Effects: SR

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rijackson741
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Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:04 am
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Re: Special Weapons

Post by rijackson741 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:19 pm

lakra wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:43 pm
Indeed... because you would probably have to touch the whole balancing system. Maybe it would be an option to think about the whole damage calculating thing -to see weapons more as a multiplier, then an absolute addition. You could also remove the multiplier by different types of enemies (small weapons are ineffective against big opponents, big weapons are ineffective against small opponents -to implement a simple rock, paper, siccsor -I'm really not a very good writer in english language, but how on earth is this word written??? in german language, it is just Schere... :cry: )
Yes, the changes will have to be significant. It will upset some players builds, but there is no way around this. We have explored more than one option to rebalance weapons, but at this point there is no final decision on how to do it.

Weapon damage being a multiplier is one option. See here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4096.
Level: 64, XP: 4734786, HP: 196, AC: 246%, AD: 49-59, AP: 3, ECC: 25%, CM: 3, BC: 127%, DR: 2
Gold: 232355 | RoLS: 1, RoL: 1, GoW: 1
HH: 1, CS: 2, IF: 4, Ev: 3, Re: 2, WP:DA: 1, WP:1S: 1, AP:L: 1, FS:DW: 2, S:DW: 1
SR

lakra
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:14 am
android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Special Weapons

Post by lakra » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:55 pm

Yes, the changes will have to be significant. It will upset some players builds, but there is no way around this. We have explored more than one option to rebalance weapons, but at this point there is no final decision on how to do it.

Weapon damage being a multiplier is one option. See here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4096.
Thanks for the link, I will read through the posts the next few days (if only this goddamn work wouldn't keep me from the funny things in life... :roll: )

I don't think too many players would be upset. Most of the common games, which update balancing matters require the recreation of characters :)

Besides that, it allows the players to play through the game with new aims and reanimates the community to think about character design and the optimal equipment.
lakra
Lvl: 76 XP: 7890637 AP: 12/3 HP: 249 AC: 394% AD: 58-65 CHS: -29 BC: 140% DR: 3
Skills: WA: 1 Do: 1 MC: 1 CS: 2 CE: 1 IF: 5
Reg: 1 WP:Da: 3 WP:1S: 1 AP:L: 3 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1
RoLS: 1
Status Effects: SR

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