Skill points every 3 levels

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
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Osho
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Skill points every 3 levels

Post by Osho »

Given the main content of the game, i.e., the number of quests and limited interactivity outside NPC's ( incl. the lack of additional character types like mages+spells etc,) takes in and around Level 20 to experience, I felt the conditions to acquire skill points every 4 levels a bit on the higher side compared to the underwhelming (IMO) effect or change in character that the skills offer at every level except a few like cleave and regeneration.

My requests are the following

1. Skill points available every 3 levels

OR

2. Increase the effectiveness of the skills that justifies the experience of the character at every 4 levels, of course without feeling being overpowered either.

I think there's a scope for a relook at the level requirements for skills and the amount of benefits they offer

Thank you for reading.
CKork
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by CKork »

I think we should wait and see. The game is not finished yet.
Who knows what the average lvl will be when you complete the main quests as well as main quest plus side quests.

Currenly, many skills (e.g. crits specials) are not really aquirable by regular game play. Though, maybe in the final version, you`ll end up as a lvl 80, or 100, and those things come naturally.

Now, yes, it may feel slow. But what if you change it now, are OP by lvl 50, and the final game stil goes on?

At least wait to v 0.9.xx for a final judgement and potential adjustment
Andor's "Vanilla" Bro
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LVL 35 (+24 dmg, 2x IF, next to no quests & unique bosses, xp saved 2get2 lvl 80 straight)
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Osho
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by Osho »

CKork wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:31 pm Who knows what the average lvl will be when you complete the main quests as well as main quest plus side quests.

Ok. But I still find many skills disappointing in terms of cost benefit ratio (except cleave and regen)

The developers can certainly bring changes to their effectiveness at every level to offer a fair amount of advantage to the character from those skills.
This will certainly help to reduce a whole lot of grinding and keep the player engaged with the game. Too much grinding is the main criticism against this game. An improved, overhaul skills set can easily overcome that criticism.

Some of the skills should be entirely junked as I don't find them useful let alone effective at all. For ex:Hard hit, weapon accuracy among couple of others

Some skills like cleave should be separated from dependency on unlocking others. I don't understand the relation of cleave with hard hit. Weapon accuracy still makes sense in terms of attack chance and action points, but again, the accuracy percentage is so low for the character at any level. It doesn't take into account where the characters attributes stand at any level to justify the little AC improvement for the player to invest entire skill point.

In short: Even in the short run I think there's a lot of room for improvements. Like I said, the skills shouldn't necessarily hand a lot of benefits but it should also justify the cost of investing a point by becoming a bit more generous in terms of benefits to the character and taking the base statistics into account
Last edited by Osho on Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
CKork
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by CKork »

agree that some things could be tweaked.
Agree that grind between lvl 5 and 15 could be decreases.
Disagree that the skill system is the problem. I like it a lot. Not every skill needs to be as best as it can be. Part of the charme of a game like this is to figure out which skills and which items go together well and which give you the best benefit.
Another cool thing is, that different skillsets give you a different play experience, which improves replayability.

Also, Diablo 2 was very successfull. There where skills, and even characters, which where totally useless or subpar to others. Still they could be fun to play and a welcome challenge to make them work.
I loved testing things, going new ways and making builds work that got no love from others. I do this in many games, and to many peoples surprise, often outpower others who use mainstream builds, because I always focus on tweaking, min-maxing and specializing on certain things others underestimate. This makes me very successful in many ways, especially in PvP, as the unexpected always has the edge :-)

Last comment:
If every skill would be set up like that and gameplay so straight forward abd easy, it would be called shooter (or hack and slay), not rpg ;-) think of it
Andor's "Vanilla" Bro
:ElyR x1:RolS x2:RoflS x1:RoL x2:HoF x1:ChaR x2:GoLF x1:ShaF x2:SRoV x1:VSH x3:WMC x1:GoW x2:BD x1:HS x2:
LVL 35 (+24 dmg, 2x IF, next to no quests & unique bosses, xp saved 2get2 lvl 80 straight)
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Osho
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by Osho »

CKork wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:13 am If every skill would be set up like that and gameplay so straight forward abd easy, it would be called shooter (or hack and slay), not rpg ;-) think of it
But what is the logic behind making the player spend a skill point for a puny little +1 improvement when the same improvement comes at a much better rate and stat on every level up for the total XP accumulated ?!?

Is +5 AC improvement on every level up inferior to just 12% points of improvement ?

Or, +1 AD compared to bark skin?

I fail to understand the logic behind restricting the players to invest certain points on skills at every 4 levels without adding noticeable improvement to the characters attributes.

Why not simply merge skill points with the default leveling system and allow more options with one single system of improvement ?

My level 12 character is already well balanced and decent enough to face the challenges due to options available outside the skill points investment that I don't see the reason to keep my character wait for every 4 levels in return of a mere +1 improvement

There are so many equipments available right after the new game begins that I can easily grind for gold and boost my stats even before I hit level 5 or spend my first skill point.

Here's my request:
1. Allow more flexibility to character customisation by spending points using the existing leveling system.
For ex: +5 points earned (or more depending on balancing requirements) on every level up and let the player decide where it wants to spend - AC, BC, DR or AD. Only 1 stat can be improved using the points earned on every level up!

2. Keep the skill points limited to actual SKILLS like magic finder, influencing merchants and so on. No need to bring character attributes here. Skills which can improve interactivity with the game world and allow more exploration rewards should become part of the skills system. For ex: pickpocketing skill to open up optional gold hunting beyond killing stuff, increase the rates of selling precious gems with merchant skill, potion making skills to benefit from extra gold and use it on target enemies with certain negative conditions which would make the lengthy encounters interesting and grinding process less boring.
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rijackson741
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by rijackson741 »

Skills are a bonus. They didn't even exist in the early version of the game. They should be treated as a bonus. There have been a number of requests to make skills available more frequently, but we do not want to do that.

Skill dependencies (and level requirements) are there to stop you from taking certain skills too early.

And CKork is right that you should consider other skills. Increased Fortitude is the best skill in the game. Depending on how you play, Evasion is really useful too.

The way to reduce early grinding (and we have already done a lot of this, so old reviews do not really reflect the current game) is to introduce more early and intermediate level quests, not by making skills easier to get.
Level:69, XP:6009681, PV:551, FQ:73
HP:224, AC:200, AD:42-52, AP:3, ECC:23%, CM:3, BC:174, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
Tyreliss57
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by Tyreliss57 »

I'd have to agree that skills every 4 levels is appropriate. I've played the game for some time now and early to mid game is where you start figuring out what you want to do with your build and it defines the rest of the game. I went for crits and am only the last 12 to 16 levels really seeing my character flourish but have been over powered since level 48 or so. My only complaint would be it taking ages to level up any more. But it's the price I pay for being level 81 almost 82.
Lv83: HP:278, AC:383, AD:36-50, CHS:92, CM:5.25, ECC:37%, BC:165, DR:5, Exp:10333896
FQ:74 PV:551
BS:1, MC:5, BC:3, CS:2, IF:5, IB:1, WP:D:1, WP:1H:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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rijackson741
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by rijackson741 »

I actually try to not level up, because at level 69 I'm OP! I avoid monsters, even though I could easily kill anything in the game. At some point I want the game to catch up to me, so it's more challenging.
Level:69, XP:6009681, PV:551, FQ:73
HP:224, AC:200, AD:42-52, AP:3, ECC:23%, CM:3, BC:174, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
Tyreliss57
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by Tyreliss57 »

I'm trying to get Fracture. Other then that I think I'm going to start yet another permadeath run. Only got to level 14 or so and died. But I may just do a normal run and not spend but a few skills on the more vital ones that work for all builds and just save the rest so I can bridge the character to anything and just try everything. I at least only have one skill I feel I wasted so I didn't do to bad.
Lv83: HP:278, AC:383, AD:36-50, CHS:92, CM:5.25, ECC:37%, BC:165, DR:5, Exp:10333896
FQ:74 PV:551
BS:1, MC:5, BC:3, CS:2, IF:5, IB:1, WP:D:1, WP:1H:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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rijackson741
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Re: Skill points every 3 levels

Post by rijackson741 »

I have a level 14 template character. I've never done anything with it because I got involved in the development. So now I know all the answers before I play the content. I continue because creating the game is much more interesting than playing it :D
Level:69, XP:6009681, PV:551, FQ:73
HP:224, AC:200, AD:42-52, AP:3, ECC:23%, CM:3, BC:174, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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