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Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Discussions of the development process of the game.
Samuel
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by Samuel »

kendraso wrote:Changing the stats will probably make me seriously think about completely starting over...or stop playing entirely...
Why do you complain? You can easily buy the new venomous dagger with almost the same old stats. There is no disadvantage beside the money you need to spend.

As this game has not reached version 1.0.0 yet, we need to adjust unbalanced items / monsters / effects / skills here and then. Many players did complain that they got the best items in the second cave.

If you would like to keep your old venomous dagger, just do not update. :D
Last edited by Samuel on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Level: 101, XP: 18780586, Gold: 358739
HP: 398, AC: 303%, AD: 84-95, AP: 4, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 13%, DR: 0
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 2, VSH: 1, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
Mino
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android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by Mino »

Samuel wrote:
Mino wrote:Changing the stats will probably make me seriously think about completely starting over...or stop playing entirely...
Why do you complain? You can easily buy the new venomous dagger with almost the same old stats. There is no disadvantage beside the money you need to spend.

As this game has not reached version 1.0.0 yet, we need to adjust unbalanced items / monsters / effects / skills here and then. Many players did complain that they got the best items in the second cave.

If you would like to keep your old venomous dagger, just do not update. :D

Um, that quote isn't from me...(its from Kendraso, who posted after me).
I actually am fine with the Venomous dagger stats being changed because I'm one the people who sold it early on, not realizing its true potential, and I am more than happy to be able to buy a weapon that is better.

I have thought about starting a new game after the new update with if the extra save slots have been added, as a sort of "what would I do, knowing what I know now?" game, but that's nothing to do with this topic. I'm definitely not stopping my current games after all the progress I've made. And with the skill points, any weapon with critical hit can be made to have more hit and chance.
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

QL 25, MF 3

12/26/18
oskarwiksten
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by oskarwiksten »

I have now thought out a way to handle this case:
oskarwiksten wrote: 1) Player plays v0.6.9.
2) Player buys N quickstrike daggers for 512gc each.
3) Player upgrades to v0.6.10
4) Player sells N quickstrike daggers for 3129gc each.
5) Profit!
The basic hypothesis for this is that there is never a need for the player to have more than one of certain equippable items (such as the quickstrike dagger).

When loading a savegame from earlier than v0.6.10, all items in the player inventory and in loot bags will be scanned for items that are "refundable". A refundable item is one whose price has been raised with the automatic price calculation (*). If the game detects more than one refundable item, all items but one will be automatically removed. In return, the player will be given back the amount of gold that was removed, based on the old item price. For example, if someone would have happened to buy 6 quickstrike daggers, the game would remove 5 of them but refund the player with 5*512 = 2560gc. Worn items are not considered, so the player could have 2 worn rings of +6 dmg and one in the inventory, and still keep all three of them.

(*) Does not include quest-, legendary- or extraordinary items. Also, minor- and major healing potions and meat are also excluded.

The list of items that are considered refundable are the following:
Heavy club
Hardened leather cap
Strong wooden tower shield
Heavy iron club
Balanced heavy iron club
Cloth shirt
Fine shirt
Leather armour
Superior leather armour
Green hat
Fine green hat
Leather cap
Fine leather cap
Leather gloves
Fine leather gloves
Snakeskin gloves
Fine snakeskin gloves
Wooden buckler
Superior wooden shield
Leather boots
Superior leather boots
Snakeskin boots
Reinforced boots
Fine gloves of swift attack
Shielding necklace
Shielding necklace
Green apple
Red apple
Strawberry
Carrot
Mushroom
Pear
Eggs
Radish
Ring of damage +6
Ring of surehit
Jinxed ring of damage resistance
Wooden club
Iron sword
Iron hammer
Giant hammer
Iron dagger
Sharp iron dagger
Superior iron dagger
Iron shortsword
Iron sword
Steel broadsword
Steel sword
Quickstrike dagger
Rusted iron sword
Mikhail's ring
My thought is that this wouldn't even be triggered for "normal" gameplay styles, since normal gameplay rarely requires more than one of these items.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this fair enough? Are there any edge cases where a "normal" player would be affected by this?
/Oskar
Mino
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by Mino »

Sounds good to me. That way, anyone who has multiple swords because they were dropped (iron swords dropped in Flagstone prison as an example) will be compensated the amount, and they probably would have sold it for gold when they got a chance anyway.

So in that sense, its actually an extra convenience, to not have to go to a store to sell off my extra leather boots, and swords that were dropped from kills :D
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

QL 25, MF 3

12/26/18
oskarwiksten
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by oskarwiksten »

Also, thank you all for the insightful comments.
Mino wrote:I actually am fine with the Venomous dagger stats being changed because I'm one the people who sold it early on, not realizing its true potential, and I am more than happy to be able to buy a weapon that is better.
That's a good point. This is something I have wanted to fix for a long time, looks like we will finally be able to do that for v0.6.10 :) I would really like to give you and other players that unknowingly have made the same mistake some way of getting worthwhile items other than some dungeon that you encountered near the start of the game. Also, this update will contain a confirmation dialog box when selling items such as this one, which will hopefully reduce the risk of it happening again (unless you really want to sell it).

In fact, the venomous dagger was added fairly early because I wanted to show off the critical hit system that was being introduced at that time. Looking at the world we have now, the stats on it are nowhere near what should be in a drop in an early dungeon.

This new price calculation gives me a lot more comfort in creating better items for merchants and drops for this release. It drastically reduces the risk of early items being overpowered, or later items being underpowered. It will be, as Mr Burns would say, *eeexcellent* :twisted:

Thank you for the input Mino.
/Oskar
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Antison
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by Antison »

Oskar,

I am unclear on onething. Will this affect bonemeal potions? I have over 750 of them and after reading about these future changes, I planned on buying at least 1000 more before 0.6.10.
"A home without a beagle is just a house"
Samuel
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by Samuel »

Mino wrote:Um, that quote isn't from me...(its from Kendraso, who posted after me).
I actually am fine with the Venomous dagger...
Sorry corrected.

2Oskar:
Removing the players items looks a little bit nontransparent to me. Perhaps better recalculate the money (could also be done for potions) and only remove items if the player has negative gold.
Otherwise we should defiantly add a toast like: "10 items removed to prevent cheating - you were refunded with money for them"

BTW: How can I get Mikhails ring twice? ;-)
Level: 101, XP: 18780586, Gold: 358739
HP: 398, AC: 303%, AD: 84-95, AP: 4, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 13%, DR: 0
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 2, VSH: 1, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
slayer
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by slayer »

Samuel wrote: Why do you complain? You can easily buy the new venomous dagger with almost the same old stats. There is no disadvantage beside the money you need to spend.

As this game has not reached version 1.0.0 yet, we need to adjust unbalanced items / monsters / effects / skills here and then. Many players did complain that they got the best items in the second cave.

Perhaps some of us have developed a sentimental attachment to the dagger we've been using since shortly after we started playing this game. I certainly don't care about the money.

I understand the need for some balancing, but I don't see why you need to change an item that people already have. Sure, change the code so that the old dagger doesn't drop anymore, and put an equivalent dagger on a merchant for all those people who sold their original through error or ignorance. Why not make the original dagger like a limited edition? Unavailable after v6.09.
Samuel wrote:If you would like to keep your old venomous dagger, just do not update. :twisted:
I think you used an inappropriate smiley for that statement, fixed it for you. Give up an item I've been using for 50+ levels or give up new content, yeah real useful tip there.
slayer

Lvl: 152, XP: 64525939, Gold: 2095292, HP: 219
AC: 400%, AD: 52-68, AP: 12/4, BC 254%, DR: 3
CS: 2 QL: 22 IF: 2 REGEN: 1 MF :8 FS:DW: 2 S:DW: 1 OHSP: 1 LAP: 1

RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 2, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 5, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 2
kendraso
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by kendraso »

Slayer made a better Point than I did, changing the existing daggers stats shouldn't be the solution, putting something in place of it for that cave would solve that problem, and maybe re-assigning the venomous to a new boss, one where you would more likely expect it to drop. And add a line of code so those of us who already have it don't get a second one, no sense in having two. This way you have a better item in the low level caves that better suits it, and those of us who still have it at higher levels and it is actually a more level appropriate weapon...just a thought :P
qasur
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Re: Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

Post by qasur »

I think changing the stats of the dagger has a lot more to do with overall weapon balance than picking the weapon up too early.

In all honesty, a weapon that has Base Damage of 3-7 (like steel sword) does on average +5 more points of damage than a base-damage-less Dagger. However, in exchange, those daggers can swing like 2 times MORE than that weapon, therefore taking that small advantage away. Tack on Critical %, and you can easily get 5 changes to one-shot enemies before you they attack you.

There *had* to be balance, and it's just better to change the weapon now to make it weaker overall. Personally, I think they shouldn't reintroduce another one with a different name (just my personal opinion) because I feel it will become the defacto weapon of choice for almost all gamers once they learn about JoF + Neo-Venomous Dagger. At least in the 0.6.9 and back, it only dropped once.

I guess what it comes down to is that maybe I feel that Daggers need another drawback? They attack faster than bare fists (or will), do normal damage, and just get bonuses from there, all the while having the lowest AP requirement to attack with. I find that unbalancing. Maybe daggers should be *required* to have -AD and -AC% on them? Quickstrike has -20% AC, and I think that was done intentionally... it was understood that having tons of attacks should come at a drawback.

Really, maybe instead of Critical %, Venomous Dagger just gets the ability to poison creatures for extra damage on each hit?
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