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Weapon Balancing

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
qasur
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:54 am

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by qasur »

Yeah, I agree that there need to be "tiers" of weapons. In your starting village, which looks like a Farming village, you've got the majority of the weapons available in the game right there. Of course the Quick Strike Dagger and the Boss drops are rare and from specific places, the Steel Sword is the best non-unique weapon that is easiest to find right in your starting village.

So, yeah, shrinking the weapons down to around 5-8 per Town/Village/City would be a good idea, and then rank them depending on what area is easier to "unlock". Generally it would go: Crossglen, Fallhaven, Villeguard, then Blackwater/Prim. Problem now is that not only weapons, but even Armor/Items, are not any better once you leave Fallhaven. Villguard and Blackwater/Prim don't really add much that you actually want. I think putting better items there would be more important.

Now that the game a general flow, it would be a big deal to do a major overhaul of the weapons/items locations in the next update. I think a 0.7.0 update doing that would be monumental for the game. At least IMHO it would be. I consider that a milestone to reach. While I love the game, I hate playing it with the mentality of "one set of best items only". You should be able to build different characters that want to do different things.

Right now, there is no benefit using any of the AP 6+ weapons. Arguably, unless it's legendary, AP5 is off limits too. AP3 and 4 are just too strong with the Jewel of Fallhaven. Especially Flagstone's Pride (wish I didn't sell mine... learned too late how good JOF is). Right now, Quickstrike/Venemous Dagger or Flagstone's Pride are two acceptable and best weapons to build for. There's no benefit for going the other route. You hit faster, kill faster, and just progress faster with those weapons. With that thought, I came up with Cleave and Stun for the Maces/Hammers/Clubs/Axes, but I feel they should do more as well. Maybe add +EXP per kill? Another advantage that those quicker and lower weapons wouldn't have. I do like that you have a lot of these martial weapons as having Crit % and x2/x3/x4 stats. I think that's good because it lets that one hit matter the most.

If you ask me, I would say that Bonemeal Potions are also the other problem too. Healing in this game is just good. Meat and Bonemeals is so good that once you get to 60+ HP, you don't need to worry. If you get a crit hit, you can heal it off. If the creature multi-strikes and lands lots of blows, you can heal it off (and usually attack some after each bonemeal too). If Meat healed less HP and Bonemeals cost twice, if not three times, as much, then actually worrying about BC% would become more important. I think most players stick with around 60-80% BC, and go 200% AC. Doesn't that seem off-balance? Healing needs to be tweaked in order to address the problem with some of these weapons in my opinion.

This was a long post, but I'm on a PC so I can type more :) Basically, there are few situations that could use an overhaul. Smaller weapon options in each town, with those weapons being Tiered appropriately to their Towns. Less HP healed from Meat and Bonemeals need to triple in price (if not at least doubled). This would lead to players needing to worry about BC%, which would lead to less AC each level and maybe into BC, but also could make players want to go the route of the Damage Resistance gear*.

I think it's all related in a way, and I think it can be a big issue going further into the game.

*I posted my Damage Resistance character in "Equipment - The Good and The Bad" because I liked it. Although it took forever to kill creatures, I rarely needed more than 30 Bonemeals to clear the Gargoyle caves many times over. I had 3 DR and my BC% was near 80%. When I switched to full-AC mode, my BC went down to 50% and 0 DR. I now carry a few hundred Bonemeals - and I need them. If there a better Mace/Hammer/Club weapon that offered a high Min and Max damage, with like 10% crit w/3x multiplier, I'd be rockin' that set of gear. I had no problem getting one attack because I rolled Crit pretty regular and one-hitted guys. If that weapon also had the Cleave/Stun option I mentioned earlier, I'd be doing even better. Not nuts, but a lot better.
Samuel
VIP
Posts: 655
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:35 pm
android_version: 2.2

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Samuel »

I strongly agree we should do a weapon and healing balancing in 0.7.0.
There are many good points in this Topic.

I filled in a feature request here:
http://code.google.com/p/andors-trail/i ... ail?id=213
Level: 101, XP: 18780586, Gold: 358739
HP: 398, AC: 303%, AD: 84-95, AP: 4, ECC: 12, CM: -, BC: 13%, DR: 0
RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 1, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 1, SRoV: 2, VSH: 1, WMC: 0, GoW: 0
Dreia
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Dreia »

Sounds good! I'm always happy to redo numbers if people are unhappy with them. I love playing with spreadsheets :) I know that we were waiting for the update before looking at stats but so far I havn't seen anything that would really make me change the numbers I listed. I would however probably add a teir 5 rank of weapons for the two new towns. So far there are tier 1 and 2 for the starter area, tier 3 in fallhaven and then teir 4 for hitting up the trainers.

~D
~Level 33~
~HP: 65 ~ AP: 2 ~ AC: 143% ~ DMG: 23 ~ BC: 32% ~
Small Rocks: 1000 RoLS: 0
Dreia
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Dreia »

I've seen people complaining about the gear problem from the new area's so I thought I'd include some rank 5 and 6 items based on the progression I outlined in the initial post.
Guilded Pugio
AP 4, AC 16, DMG 01-04, Block -5, Crit 28% x1.5
Worn Wakizashi
AP 4, AC 24, DMG 05-12, Crit 18% x2
Shortened Claymore
AP 5, AC 19, DMG 08-14, Crit 22% x2
Light Battleaxe
AP 8, AC 07, DMG 11-18, Crit 7% x3
Flanged Mace
AP 7, AC 12, DMG 15-22, Crit 10% x2.5

Silver Stilleto
AP 4, AC 18, DMG 02-06, Block -8, Crit 32% x1.5
Scimitar
AP 4, AC 28, DMG 06-14, Crit 20% x2
Flambard
AP 5, AC 22, DMG 10-17, Crit 24% x2
Spiked Battleaxe
AP 8, AC 08, DMG 15-23, Crit 8% x3
Morning Star
AP 7, AC 13, DMG 19-30, Crit 10% x2.5

What could be considered rank 7 weapons, as part of the storyline one could through a series of quests get a weapon of their choice upgraded at a church which would reduce the AP cost of the weapon by 1 point.

Blessed Silver Stilleto, Holy Scimitar, Sanctified Flambard, Perfect Spiked Battleaxe, White Morning Star
~D
~Level 33~
~HP: 65 ~ AP: 2 ~ AC: 143% ~ DMG: 23 ~ BC: 32% ~
Small Rocks: 1000 RoLS: 0
Rambo
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:35 pm
android_version: 2.0

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Rambo »

From my experiences block chance helps very very very little, and that's an understatement.
Right now I'm lvl 28 with a 4% block chance and I rarely use any potions. If I equip all block chance gear and bump it to 90+%, I get my world rocked. It seems as though I get hit just as much and for the same dmg value, but by choosing block chance I must sacrifice way too much attack stats, and can rarely even land one attack. Also, in order to land attacks in most areas, your attack chance needs to be at least 180%. So unless I'm way over leveled, the only thing there to balance the game IS the bonemeal potions and chronic saving. Sometimes I get in fights where I need to drink 3 bonemeals to survive one fight, and the same monster I occaisionally kill with 1 critical hit. With monsters having such high defense, and your characters defense doing so little, your basically stuck going all attack hoping to 1 round monsters, relying on bonemeals as your main defense in the circumstance where you don't 1 round the enemy. It seems backwards, that by gearing for defense I take 3 times the damage.
My impression is that monsters in general are a little too hard to hit, and they land too many attacks against characters with maxed out block chance using the armor that exists
.
Level: 39, Experience: 1046378, Gold: 81601, RoLS: 0, ElyR: 0, RoL: 0, Hitpoints: 60, Attack Chance: 191%, Attack Damage: 27, Attack Cost: 2, Critical Hit Chance: 0%, Critical Multiplier: ~, Block Chance: -16%, Damage Resistance: 1
Dreia
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Dreia »

*is confuzled* I think you posted in the wrong topic?

~D
~Level 33~
~HP: 65 ~ AP: 2 ~ AC: 143% ~ DMG: 23 ~ BC: 32% ~
Small Rocks: 1000 RoLS: 0
Mino
VIP
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:24 pm
android_version: 4.4 - Kitkat

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Mino »

Those are some good ideas on the weapons.

I'd also like to see either a weapon or other gear (necklace, or armour) that provides fatigue resistance, since that seems to be the worst of the temporary character conditions you can get.

In fact, if having blackwater misery somehow made you immune (or less susceptible) to fatigue, I'd rethink using those items.
Lvl: 206 XP: 159262572, Gold: 1657119, RoLS: 2, ElyR: 1, RoL: 1, ChaR: 2, GoLF: 1, ShaF: 6, SRoV: 1, VSH: 6, WMC: 1, GoW: 1
HP: 241, AP: 3, AC: 562%, AD: 116-130, CM: 3.0, ECC: 38%, BC: 139%, DR: 3

QL 25, MF 3

12/26/18
Dreia
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by Dreia »

I wanted to get the weapons looked at before I poked around at the gear, you are right though if we are going to have effects we need effect resistances.

~D
~Level 33~
~HP: 65 ~ AP: 2 ~ AC: 143% ~ DMG: 23 ~ BC: 32% ~
Small Rocks: 1000 RoLS: 0
kendraso
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:33 am

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by kendraso »

Dreia, rambo posted in the right topic, he/she is referring to the talk about bonemeal being reduced in effectiveness or raised in price, which for higher lvl players isn't bad, but for low to mid lvls, its balanced quite nicely. I agree with rambo on the bc problem, because I've done the same in that I've gone near bc with a build and get killed just as fast, if not faster than my ac/ad build. Personally, raising the price of bonemeal doesn't bother me all to much because I can farm flagstone for money to buy them in large quantities, but the game already currently is a strategic game in that if you don't save often and forget a heal, you lose Exp, and for some the unique drops as I've seen in a few other threads, it takes a long time to lvl, in a game where its already a bit of a grind to lvl in. Recalculating the bc effects would be beneficial because it would make a better argument for a player when they level up if that one point of bc had a noticeable change in stats as the other 3 options.

As for the weapon balancing in the towns, it would be nice to see a better distribution of the merchants wares, only for the fact that when Ur low lvl, u can save for the steel sword, like I did, then go murder to your hearts content until you get something better from a boss. An idea would be lvl or stat restrictions potentially, not some so outlandish that you have to have a specific build or set in order to use a specific weapon, but to make it so that your not throwing any balance the game already has out of whack. Maybe adding minor stats bonuses to some of the weapons to entice the player to use that over something else.

In general I also agree that the other myriad of health potions and the like do need to have the prices either reduced to match their in-effectiveness or have the health they do restore reflect their prices to match meat and bonemeals, considering that you can farm meats in 2 caves already to your hearts content and you gain money and decent exp in the process, which makes buying some of the potions seem silly knowing those facts.

As for the challenge in this game, its exactly where it needs to be. As long as you save often, you never really have to fear too much, as well as for the most part you never become too good at grinding in the new areas.

I've rambled a bit, but I think I've posed a few good ideas, which Oskar is more than welcome to consider them or toss them, that is up to him, I enjoy this game a lot to the point my fiance gets pissed at me because I play it instead of spending time with her. I look forward to every update and if I had the time, I would be contributing code, but work and bills are a pain
bd4e
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:33 pm
android_version: 2.2

Re: Weapon Balancing

Post by bd4e »

Hi!

I have an idea about legendary items.
Since they are very hard to obtain and people put a lot of time into getting them it would IMHO make sense if they were always a bit better then the best item you can get in the store.

As the map expands and more shops exist, better weapons will be available in there.

To keep legendary items competitive we could
* improve items by levelling (lets say RoLS gets +5% critial once character reaches level 40, +5% attack at level 50 and +1 AD at level 60)

This means legendary items stay competitive at a leter point in the game but are not too powerful early in the game.
What do you think?
Level: 50, Experience: 2322626, Gold: 219442, RoLS: 1, ElyR: 1, RoL: 0
Hitpoints: 60, Attack chance: 216%, Attack damage: 29-34, Attack cost: 4, Critical hit chance: 5%, Critical multiplier: -, Block chance: 64%, Damage resistance: 0

Updated: 2011/08/20
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