Heavy Weapons

[Antison]

I prefer limited realism in my game where I'm a kid who gets to kill monsters twice my size. But even so, I would say it is realistic to get stronger as you keep fighting, so the level up makes sense.

Stronger, sure, but a few levels shouldn't make your dagger do more damage now than your battleaxe did before.

AD level-ups don't "make your dagger do more damage", it makes you do more damage independent of the dagger or any other weapon. Also, "than your battleaxe did before" is also not the issue as it too will help you rationally to how the dagger did.

[der_Hosenwyrm]

I prefer limited realism in my game where I'm a kid who gets to kill monsters twice my size. But even so, I would say it is realistic to get stronger as you keep fighting, so the level up makes sense.

Stronger, sure, but a few levels shouldn't make your dagger do more damage now than your battleaxe did before.

AD level-ups don't "make your dagger do more damage", it makes you do more damage independent of the dagger or any other weapon. Also, "than your battleaxe did before" is also not the issue as it too will help you rationally to how the dagger did.

I think what he meant was "a few level-ups into AD shouldn't make you deal more damage with your dagger than what you dealt with your battleaxe previously".

I elaborated my own rationale for this in my own posts in this thread.

[Mino]

I somewhat agree with that, but each hit of the heavy weapon still does more damage, so it makes sense that a weapon you can hit with more often would do more damage over time.

But maybe make the AD for heavy weapons dependent on the player's base AD in addition to the weapon's.

Example:
gut splitter AD 7-17 + 25% of base AD (or 50% or 20 if you want to go lower).
I tried to suggest this as a stat for a weapon idea but it could just apply to all heavy weapons. The idea being that the stronger you get (more AD) the more powerful a blow you can land with a heavy weapon.

Or Stomp's idea of it depending on the AP cost and base AD, but I'd prefer it more straight forward.

[sdevaney]

The way I see it there are basically two options:

1. Currently the player character (you) controls the damage output based on your level up choices. Items, weapons, and armor are just there as an enhancement to your base stats which is where most of your power comes from.

2. The other way to do it is to have less of an emphasis on the player stats. Seriously nerf player stats and create items that will have a more direct impact on how you play the game so it becomes less about the character and more about the items you have.

I don't now about you guys but I like the way the current setup is. I can switch my items around completely differently even using the worst items in the game and still have a fully functioning and playable character. I may have to change my play style but I can still play end game content with the same wooden club and shirt I start out with. Using option 2 this would not work and I would be only as good as my items allow, I would be forced to upgrade every time something a little better came along.

***This is only my opinion it has no actual bearing on development*** All that being said I am still in favor of nerfing the level up stat increases by like 25%. ***I repeat that was just an opinion***

[Tomcat]

The way I see it there are basically two options:

1. Currently the player character (you) controls the damage output based on your level up choices. Items, weapons, and armor are just there as an enhancement to your base stats which is where most of your power comes from.

2. The other way to do it is to have less of an emphasis on the player stats. Seriously nerf player stats and create items that will have a more direct impact on how you play the game so it becomes less about the character and more about the items you have.

I don't now about you guys but I like the way the current setup is. I can switch my items around completely differently even using the worst items in the game and still have a fully functioning and playable character. I may have to change my play style but I can still play end game content with the same wooden club and shirt I start out with. Using option 2 this would not work and I would be only as good as my items allow, I would be forced to upgrade every time something a little better came along.

***This is only my opinion it has no actual bearing on development*** All that being said I am still in favor of nerfing the level up stat increases by like 25%. ***I repeat that was just an opinion***

I think there is a happy medium between item upgrade and self upgrade. I don't think you should have to have the absolute best gear to fight powerful monsters, but I don't think it makes sense that it doesn't matter between a beginner weapon and a great quest item.

The only player stay that I think needs nerfing is AD, and since it's only 1 per level now, it should go into skills and proficiencies instead. Character based AD should go up, but not this powerfully.

[Mino]

The way I see it there are basically two options:

1. Currently the player character (you) controls the damage output based on your level up choices. Items, weapons, and armor are just there as an enhancement to your base stats which is where most of your power comes from.

2. The other way to do it is to have less of an emphasis on the player stats. Seriously nerf player stats and create items that will have a more direct impact on how you play the game so it becomes less about the character and more about the items you have.

I don't now about you guys but I like the way the current setup is. I can switch my items around completely differently even using the worst items in the game and still have a fully functioning and playable character. I may have to change my play style but I can still play end game content with the same wooden club and shirt I start out with. Using option 2 this would not work and I would be only as good as my items allow, I would be forced to upgrade every time something a little better came along.

***This is only my opinion it has no actual bearing on development*** All that being said I am still in favor of nerfing the level up stat increases by like 25%. ***I repeat that was just an opinion***

Between those 2 choices, I'd prefer things as they are, especially since a lot of my level ups went into AD. I also don't think AD level ups should be nerfed, it's already as low as it can get, considering all the others go up by 5 or 3.

[der_Hosenwyrm]

The way I see it there are basically two options:

1. Currently the player character (you) controls the damage output based on your level up choices. Items, weapons, and armor are just there as an enhancement to your base stats which is where most of your power comes from.

2. The other way to do it is to have less of an emphasis on the player stats. Seriously nerf player stats and create items that will have a more direct impact on how you play the game so it becomes less about the character and more about the items you have.

I think both of those options have significant drawbacks, and neither really solves the problem as I see it. (Sorry! )

IMO, option 1 ignores the intrinsic properties of particular types of weapons, and essentially has the effect of making daggers overpowered. Option 2 doesn't strike me as being very appealing from a RP perspective, because it downplays the importance of building your character.

How about a third option? I suggest the following adjustments:

a) place a cap on the amount of damage that can be dealt using small weapons like daggers (but still allow this to be multiplied using the existing critical hit system)
b) implement a system such as the one suggested by Mino which allows players with high AD to do more damage with heavy weapons

[sdevaney]

I was speaking in general terms of the basic item to character relationship not specifically about heavy weapons or any set of items.

Also a lot of the negative points brought up specifically about weapons could be addressed with weapon proficiencies and some finer tweaks like adding more diverse weapons in general. Many of which have been suggested here on the forums.

[Tomcat]

I was speaking in general terms of the basic item to character relationship not specifically about heavy weapons or any set of items.

Also a lot of the negative points brought up specifically about weapons could be addressed with weapon proficiencies and some finer tweaks like adding more diverse weapons in general. Many of which have been suggested here on the forums.

In general terms, I agree that the character build should remain important. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that player stats be totally nerfed.

However, making AD level ups give a flat damage bonus regardless of weapon results in the game being so heavily skewed towards fast small weapons that I don't think that you can come up with a build of any sort that isn't more powerful in combat with a dagger than a heavy weapon, or even a BSS. Sure you can have fun and powerful running around with Gutsplitter, but you are doing less damage per turn than you could be.

Only a special feature like life stealing can help, and if you introduced a Dagger of Life Stealing, it would immediately become better than the RoL unless you ruthlessly nerfed it with a huge drawback.

Adding a variety of new weapons won't help, if none of them can be as good as a dagger.

We need a system where dagger is only most powerful if you build for it, while a bigger weapon can be better with a different build.

I'm hoping that the new proficiencies will make this happen. My point is that it needs to be a goal.

[Fire7051]

Daggers have a much lower AD in exchange for AC it would make sense that the Gutsplitter should be able to have higher AD in exchange for AC. The problem with the scenario and the part that becomes unbalanced is when AP is taken into account. I don't believe that the problem here is the AD, the problem with the balance is the AP.

If the Gutsplitter got in just as many attacks as the dagger the Gutsplitter would win hands down, but since the dagger can get in 4-5 attacks vs the 1-2 of the Gutsplitter then you have a major imbalance. This is all because of the allotment of AP.

I am hoping that the new skills for the weapons will balance out two handed weapons so that you could get more attacks per round with the heavier weapons.