Andor's Trail

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Unarmed goes to 4?

Well, [CENSORED].

That makes me really not want to download it.

EDIT: correction.

Darkwolf wrote:...

Unarmed goes to 3?

Well, [CENSORED].

That makes me really not want to download it.

Do not worry;

Sarumar wrote:

Darkwolf wrote:...

Unarmed goes to 3?

Well, [CENSORED].

That makes me really not want to download it.

Do not worry;

There is still quickstrike dagger...

I despise items with negative stats, no matter how beneficial they may be otherwise.

Darkwolf wrote:

Sarumar wrote:

Darkwolf wrote:...

Unarmed goes to 3?

Well, [CENSORED].

That makes me really not want to download it.

Do not worry;

There is still quickstrike dagger...

I despise items with negative stats, no matter how beneficial they may be otherwise.

I'll partially agree with you on this one. I don't like items with negative stats. However, until duel-wielding unarmed comes out I suspect that unarmed just won't do as well as equipping a weapon even if it is the QSD.

fiernaq wrote:
unarmed just won't do as well as equipping a weapon even if it is the QSD.

And nor should it. Hence the bump up to 3AP.

tek wrote:

fiernaq wrote:
unarmed just won't do as well as equipping a weapon even if it is the QSD.

And nor should it. Hence the bump up to 3AP.

It already wasn't as good as any other weapon. It can't crit, has no additional damage or AC, and is only really useful against extremely early game creatures, due to the insane increase of BC on creatures several quests in.

Darkwolf wrote:

tek wrote:

fiernaq wrote:
unarmed just won't do as well as equipping a weapon even if it is the QSD.

And nor should it. Hence the bump up to 3AP.

It already wasn't as good as any other weapon. It can't crit, has no additional damage or AC, and is only really useful against extremely early game creatures, due to the insane increase of BC on creatures several quests in.

We are off topic, so this will be my last comment on the matter.
When unarmed was at 2AP, it was overpowered b/c @ 10 AP you got 5 attacks. At 12 AP, you got 6 attacks. Enough said.

Maybe we can change the topic title to "Updates in 6.12a", so that we can continue discussing this?
If not, I'll just add my 2 cents.

It was mainly helpful to players just starting out, who have a long way to go to get enough gold for the Jewel of Fallhaven (and would only know about it off-hand if they've been to the forums) and aren't strong enough to make it to Loneford to buy the QSD. They would only get 3 attacks per turn. Now they only get 2, and the leftover AP isn't enough for anything else.

I suppose it makes sense "realistically" (I don't think realism should have too much place in this game though), and may get people to buy some of the 4 or 5 AP cost weapons that add to AC & AD, and anyone who just got the game won't know what they're missing, but it still effectively takes away one of their better options for starting off.

tek wrote:

Darkwolf wrote:

tek wrote:
And nor should it. Hence the bump up to 3AP.

It already wasn't as good as any other weapon. It can't crit, has no additional damage or AC, and is only really useful against extremely early game creatures, due to the insane increase of BC on creatures several quests in.

We are off topic, so this will be my last comment on the matter.
When unarmed was at 2AP, it was overpowered b/c @ 10 AP you got 5 attacks. At 12 AP, you got 6 attacks. Enough said.

5 or 6 attacks at lower AC and AD. That's not overpowered. It's like the Monk's Flurry of Blows (early levels) in 3.x: more attacks at reduced to-hit and damage. More attacks doesn't automatically mean overpowered.

Darkwolf wrote:5 or 6 attacks at lower AC and AD. That's not overpowered. It's like the Monk's Flurry of Blows (early levels) in 3.x: more attacks at reduced to-hit and damage. More attacks doesn't automatically mean overpowered.

Unless you have no level cap but you do have an AP cap. Then it can easily become OP.

Example 1:
Level 40 player with 230% AC and 30-36 AD, barehanded for 2 AP attack cost with (2) CS for 12 max AP.
6 attacks @ 33 dmg with an 85% chance to hit = 5 hits for 165 dmg.

Same player equips the Balanced Steel Sword for an additional 32% AC and 3-7 AD for a total of 262% AC and 33-43 AD with an attack cost of 3 AP so 4 max hits.
4 attacks @ 38 dmg with a 90% chance to hit = 3 hits for 114 dmg or possibly 4 hits for 152 dmg. That's a minimum of 13 dmg difference.

Already, the simple act of equipping a weapon (arguably one of the best ones currently available) is a dmg loss. Now, try upping the AD a bit and see how the same formula quickly becomes an overpowering force to be reckoned with.

Example 2:
Level 120 player with 250% AC and 56-62 AD, barehanded.
6 attacks @ 59 dmg with an 85% chance to hit = 5 hits for 295 dmg.

Same player equips the same weapon as above for 59-69 AD.
4 attacks @ 64 dmg with a 90% chance to hit = 192 dmg or possibly 256 dmg if he gets lucky. That's a minimum of 39 dmg difference.

And it just gets worse the higher lvl you get. As long as you can maintain an 85-90% chance to hit and stack everything else in AD you might as well go barehanded for the extra hit. Of course, with the latest change to 0.6.12 you might as well equip the Quickstrike dagger since it's the best weapon that will still let you get 6 hits in. Just for giggles, check out the dmg using Sarumar's stats as currently listed in the Highscore thread:

Level 226 player with 420% AC and 100-107 AD, barehanded.
6 attacks @ 103 dmg with a 93% chance to hit = 5 hits for 515 dmg.

Same player equips the same weapon as above for 103-114 AD.
4 attacks @ 109 dmg with a 95% chance to hit = max 4 hits for 436 dmg. That's 79 dmg less than going barehanded even without missing.