Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

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QQkp
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by QQkp »

My current character is all-in on the unarmed/monk way of life - going great so far, 55 quests down, level 42, still have to do Lodar and Remgard.

A quick observation - is it deliberate that the "Unarmored fighting" skill is as unrewarding as it is? The monk play style hinges on 3 skills:
  • "Fighting style: Way of the monk" offers:
    • AC boost matching "Weapon Accuracy"
    • BC boost around half of "Dodge"
    • DR boost matching "Bark Skin"
    • damage boost twice as good as "Hard Hit"
    • a small bump for criticals
  • "Unarmed fighting" offers:
    • AC boost better than "Weapon Accuracy"
    • BC boost around half of "Dodge"
    • damage boost better than "Hard Hit", since it also applies to minimum damage
  • "Unarmored fighting" offers:
    • BC boost only very slightly better than "Dodge"
If you think about it from the perspective of a sort of "unrestricted skill point equivalent" (i.e. how many skill points would you need to spend to get an equivalent or similar benefit if this skill didn't exist?), "Way of the monk" scores around 4.5; "Unarmed fighting" scores maybe around 4 or so; but "Unarmored fighting" is hardly more than 1.

I'm not sure if it would imbalance things to modify it now, though.
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Antison
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by Antison »

QQkp,

At the time of creation of "Unarmored fighting" and "Unarmed fighting", there wasn't many people fighting the way of the monk, so the focus on these skills really wasn't there from the development team perspective. That's why we added the "way of the monk" skill. We wanted to make it more fun and attractive.
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QQkp
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by QQkp »

That makes sense. In general, does AT development tend to avoid tweaking existing things? I can only think of a couple rare occasions off the top of my head (like weapon damage multipliers and effective critical chance), just curious.
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Antison
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by Antison »

Yes. Changing existing items, skills...etc is limited by necessity.
Maps are changed a lot. The RoLS has been changed a few times. The Xu'lviir has been changed once. As a couple of examples.
Almost everything is subject to change as AT is a game in flux.
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CKork
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by CKork »

I was wondering about the same thing.
IMO the unarmored spec is next to useless, considering the dodge skill.

I think the unarmored skill is one worth looking at.
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by JonLin »

I don't have unarmed but I think unarmored works just the way it is.
Level232 HP668 AP4 AC353 AD220-239 BC200
Fighting Style: Dual wield
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by CUCHULAINN3 »

There should be a way of the priest/mage build. Depending on the priest/mage a sceptor would be one of the few items that would work. I may have to try unarmed or unarmored
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Lacrom
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by Lacrom »

about unarmored skill, I agree that it is almost completely useless... the dodge skil is far better because it is sometimes needed as a requirement for other skills (such as taunt, really useful one). it's just +10 BC for free once you finished the charwood quest
unarmed skill is one of the best, if not the best skill in the game IMO
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by Lich King »

After a long pause, I took out this game again, and started a new character for a monk build, just to try it. Well, in fact it is an universal build for now, and I made it so that he will have 4 unspent ability points at lvl 30. Two of that goes to Combat speed, wich is a must have for everything but especially for a monk. And the other two can go to Way of the monk, or other specialization if it doesn't work out. Now I started counting the stats with possible gear and skills. (This game is more of a strategy game than an advanture RPG, where you have to plan well ahead or else you can screw up your later game, and you must make uninformed decisions in early game that influences your later game.)
After doing my counting, this is my conclusion: You can build a pretty strong unarmed character with very high AC and fairly high BC. But I have some concerns:
- Your damage output will be very low, and you don't even have critical strikes to compensate it. (You can get 10 Crit from the Robe of the Sublimate, and max. 1,75 Crit*, thats next to nothing.) And that sucks, to put it bluntly. There are very few items that can raise your Dmg. In fact, nothing else than the Ring of the Protector is suitable for a monk becouse you really need that 14 BC it gives. And that gives you 0-3 Dmg, that's 0-6 with two rings, that's it. There is also the Stoutford war amulet, but you are better off with the Necklace of the Protector for the 8 BC and 2 DR.
- Suitable gear for an unarmed character is very scarce. In fact there is no upgrade to the stuff you can collect early in the game, such as the Feline gloves and boots, the upgraded Green cap and either the Robe of the sublimate or the Robe of the protector. So you get your things early and thats all you have for the rest of the game.

So here are my suggestions to make such a build more appealing:
- Change the stats of Way of the monk so that it gives 5 Crit chance and +0,5 Crit* for every skill level. So that you have 15 Crit with 2,5 Crit* when the skill is maxed out.
- Make more cloth items in the game so that you can get better gear later on. The most important upgrade would be more Dmg, but more Crit, BC, DR and other improvements would be nice too.
- Maybe there should be a new handheld item category that doesn't count as a weapon, just like cloth doesn't count as armore. I think of stuff like knuckle duster, tonfa, and such. Yeah, I know, it's a bit of stretching out the definition of "unarmed", becouse they are in fact weapons, but you need something to improve Dmg. I think they should have low Dmg of their own, but have a decent Dmg multiplier. Also none of them should have more than 4 AP cost.
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Re: Unarmed Fighting...are you doing it?

Post by rijackson741 »

Lich King wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:47 am This game is more of a strategy game than an advanture RPG, where you have to plan well ahead or else you can screw up your later game, and you must make uninformed decisions in early game that influences your later game.)
That's a very good point, although I somewhat disagree with you. I would say that it is both RPG and strategy. RPG gives you things to do. Quests to puzzle over and complete, a story behind the world and what you are doing. Much more than just the best way to kill as many monsters as possible. But strategy is what makes the game re-playable. There is a lot of monster bashing, and there are many approaches to success in that.
Lich King wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:47 am After doing my counting, this is my conclusion: You can build a pretty strong unarmed character with very high AC and fairly high BC. But I have some concerns:
- Your damage output will be very low, and you don't even have critical strikes to compensate it. (You can get 10 Crit from the Robe of the Sublimate, and max. 1,75 Crit*, thats next to nothing.) And that sucks, to put it bluntly. There are very few items that can raise your Dmg. In fact, nothing else than the Ring of the Protector is suitable for a monk becouse you really need that 14 BC it gives. And that gives you 0-3 Dmg, that's 0-6 with two rings, that's it. There is also the Stoutford war amulet, but you are better off with the Necklace of the Protector for the 8 BC and 2 DR.
- Suitable gear for an unarmed character is very scarce. In fact there is no upgrade to the stuff you can collect early in the game, such as the Feline gloves and boots, the upgraded Green cap and either the Robe of the sublimate or the Robe of the protector. So you get your things early and thats all you have for the rest of the game.
- Change the stats of Way of the monk so that it gives 5 Crit chance and +0,5 Crit* for every skill level. So that you have 15 Crit with 2,5 Crit* when the skill is maxed out.
Unarmed was added late to the game, so I agree that we need more gear. We need more heavy armor choices too (at the other end of the scale!). Also more skills. There is no specialization skill for Way of the Monk, and there should be. I think adding your suggested stats to a specialization skill would be better.
Lich King wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:47 am - Maybe there should be a new handheld item category that doesn't count as a weapon, just like cloth doesn't count as armore. I think of stuff like knuckle duster, tonfa, and such. Yeah, I know, it's a bit of stretching out the definition of "unarmed", becouse they are in fact weapons, but you need something to improve Dmg. I think they should have low Dmg of their own, but have a decent Dmg multiplier. Also none of them should have more than 4 AP cost.
How about another skill you can purchase, starting with one or more oegyth crystals (but not necessarily at Charwood!)? "Iron fists". You are trained by punching and kicking hot sand until the skin on your hands and feet thickens and becomes harder. Boosts AD.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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