Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Unstructured ideas, requests and suggestions for the development of the game.
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Antison
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by Antison »

Your DR idea is not a valid logical suggestion. It overpowers the player. I agree with you about BC.
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rijackson741
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by rijackson741 »

Osho wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:22 pm I fail to understand why you are always opppsed to any change. If not DR then at least bring BC at par with AC.
I am not always opposed to any change, but I do recognize that making a change to something as fundamental to the game as this can have very big ramifications. And, as I already said, this has been discussed before, extensively. Those numbers weren't just pulled out of a hat. They were set that way for a reason, and I don't have a big inclination to dig all of that up (it's on these forums somewhere) and rehash it all over again. For a start though, AC and BC are not equal. BC has an offset of 50. See here: viewtopic.php?t=6613

Anyway, if defensive builds are inferior then what is needed is to look at everything, not just the level up bonuses. What about skills? Equipment? Monster stats? Nothing to do with the stats of combat can be changed without considering the entire picture of those stats, not just some tiny corner of the picture. It's a huge can of worms. When we introduced the damage modifier that was based on hundreds of posts in private discussions, multi-page spreadsheets, multi-page Word documents laying out how all the stats interact, etc. A lot of that work was done by me. It's a 30 second task for you to ask for this. It's vastly more work to figure out what the real consequences of such a change would be, or even if it's the right change to make to improve defensive builds (IMO simply improving shields would be better).
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by rijackson741 »

greyged wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:19 am A skill that would make a tank more tanky and lets him do more damage in a battle the longer the battle goes, something that Stacks (maybe without a %chance to go up).
OK, I see. Interesting idea. Hard to explain in a skill description though.

An alternative might be the ability to learn based on the number of kills of that monster. That would obviously have to be capped though, and would give you no advantage in boss fights.

The skills don't really stack. They are hard coded into the game, and just work whatever way they are coded to work. In principle, we can make them do anything.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Osho
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by Osho »

I have made the suggestion to bring BC to +5 only after experiencing all possibilities available in the game (skills, items, etc)

Many BC related items come with minor to heavy penalties to other stats. It makes it even more difficult (esp, BC focused build) to keep up with the pace and the levels at which monsters are confronted outside the starting areas.

This means either a hybrid or DR focused build is more suitable in the long run (past L20/25+) than a BC focused build.

Again the BC related items are spread across the game world outside the stores, unlike AC or DR items easily accessible through stores. Some are only available after completing a quest, which are usually difficult. While many are available in Remgard and as loot drops of monsters/bosses.

Skill is the only way to boost BC faster. The shortcoming of using this route is that I cannot afford to wear items with heavy penalties to non-BC stats if I need to survive the battles, which essentially forces me to go for a hybrid build again to forego certain BC specific items for later levels when my non-BC stats are good enough to compensate for the penalty BC related items impose.

I don't experience such a dilemma in either AC or DR focused builds because neither items nor the skills penalise me so heavily that I have to keep grinding for more experience (levels) in order to keep up with the tough monsters spread across different areas in the game world having much better stats, nor the list of items are so restricted that each playthrough feels the same.

By adding a +2 to existing BC to make it at par with AC - I can now compensate for the penalties without grinding too much. Even a hybrid build can now offer some defense to confront with monsters at levels a bit sooner than normally I would want to attempt. Even damage resistance skill becomes more useful now that has a pre-requisite of base BC before a player can unlock it.

I don't see what earth shattering ramifications will this change bring to the game other than improving an otherwise underwhelming stat.
Monsters are already tough and better balanced outside starting areas that a +5 BC on level up could dramatically make a difference on fights against them. Stores already have a limited set of items with boost to BC anyways. Many other items are not possible to access till the player is ready to battle the monsters or enter tough areas.
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by rijackson741 »

If the problem is a lack of items with decent BC, then the fix is better items. That's why I'm saying just changing the level up bonuses is not necessarily the right thing to do. Everything that gives BC has to be considered. The AC and BC level ups were set that way for a reason. They are not arbitrary numbers. I agree that defensive builds are underpowered, but the solution to that is to look at everything, and then fix it right, not just to slap some band aid on one stat and hope for the best. That could have unintended consequences that means we just jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by Osho »

rijackson741 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:45 pm If the problem is a lack of items with decent BC, then the fix is better items.
This is definitely a better solution incl the shields you had mentioned. But given the time constraints and limited hands wirking on the game, I suggested a quick fix solution that could at least bring some relief than waiting for months before BC related items and other aspects are looked into.
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by rijackson741 »

If this needs fixing, then we should do it right, once. Trying to patch the game mechanics with a band aid could just lead to more problems down the road.
Antison also noted (private conversation) than when you start the game you have 60 AC, but 0 BC.

We should look at everything, and then implement what is right, not just a quick fix. Then we don't have to do it again.
Level:71, XP:6493739, PV:608, FQ:84
HP:210, AC:212, AD:58-77, AP:4, ECC:16%, CM:1.5, BC:188, DR:3
Gold: 237559 | RoLS:1, RoL:1, GoW:1, VSH:1, RoFLS:1, WoB:1
HH:1, WA:1, CS:2, Cl:1, IF:4, Ev:3, Re:2, WP:DA:1, WP:1S:1, WP:B:1, AP:L:1, FS:DW:2, S:DW:1
greyged
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by greyged »

rijackson741 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:38 pm
greyged wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:19 am A skill that would make a tank more tanky and lets him do more damage in a battle the longer the battle goes, something that Stacks (maybe without a %chance to go up).
rijackson741 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:38 pm Hard to explain in a skill description though.
seems this would be the easiest part... :?
rijackson741 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:38 pm The skills don't really stack. They are hard coded into the game, and just work whatever way they are coded to work. In principle, we can make them do anything.
so way too much work, understandable.
rijackson741 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:38 pm An alternative might be the ability to learn based on the number of kills of that monster. That would obviously have to be capped though, and would give you no advantage in boss fights.
nice idea, new goals for the monster hunt 8-) but again not really something to strengthen the defensive builds :(


i have read about the idea of riposte but didnt find an answer to it, so to change this idea here what about this:


riposte/counterattack (lvl 1 and 2, needs fighting style: weapon and shield and character lvl 20/ lvl 30)

blocking while carrying a shield gives you a 25%/50% to do a counter attack (full damage and critical chance). the block makes the enemy stumble and lowers his attack and block chance by 15/30 for 1 round/2 rounds.
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Osho
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by Osho »

If I understood greyged's suggestions correctly then some of these changes are possible using potions before starting the battle which boosts various stats for a time period. This makes an already BC focused build like a tanky one!
Perhaps the duration of such potions could be increased as I find some of them very low to be effective against an area full of monsters to battle.

Potions that are accessible after completing a quest that takes higher levels to complete should be sufficiently rewarded with potions that lasts longer to enjoy the skills like cleave and make a BC focused builds get their money's worth out of these expensive potions

Also, I have another suggestion after reading about antison's remark on having 60 AC, but 0 BC when starting a game.

Could this be the changed without making any corrections to existing leveling up points?

Like 10 BC (or more) on start?
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Antison
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Re: Changes to AC, BC or DR when leveling ul

Post by Antison »

Osho wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 am
Also, I have another suggestion after reading about antison's remark on having 60 AC, but 0 BC when starting a game.

Could this be the changed without making any corrections to existing leveling up points?

Like 10 BC (or more) on start?
Yes.
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