Andor's Trail

I have started working on a skill system for the next release. My thought is that we should reward the players each N levels with a choice of a new skill. I also want the skills to be a lot more powerful than the usual levelup benefits, to really reward reaching higher levels. I'm thinking one skill every 3 levels or so.

Basically, each skill gives some benefit to existing stats or random chances. Some skills might require the player having reached a certain level of some other skill or stat before being available to pick.

I would like to have input on balancing of these skills (see below). Are the percentages and increase amounts balanced well enough?

The skills I have in mind are:

• Weapon accuracy. Increases AC by 12 for each skill level.
• Hard hit. Increases min and max damage by 2 for each skill level.
• Merchant. For every skill level, decreases the buying and selling gold penalty by 5 unit percent. (3 levels will make buying price=selling price)
• Dodge. Increases BC by 9 for each skill level.
• Bark skin. Increases damage resistance by 1 for each skill level.
• More criticals. Increases critical chance by 20% for each skill level. (20% increase on existing crit.chance, not 20 unit percent)
• Better criticals. Increases critical multiplier by 50% for each skill level. (50% increase on the existing crit.mult.)
• Combat speed. Increases max AP by 1 for each skill level. Might be overpowered?
• Golddigger. Increases chance of finding gold in monster drops by 30%, and increases quantity of gold drops by 50% for each skill level. (up to the maximum amount that the monster drops)
• Quick learner. Increases amount of exp given by defeating monsters by 10% for each skill level.
• Cleave. Gives +10AP on every kill.
• Corpse eater. Gives +1HP on every kill per skill level.
• Increased fortitude. Raises max HP by 1 per skill level on every subsequent level up. (not retroactively)
• Evasion. For every skill level, reduces both the chance of failed flee attempts by 5% and the chance that a adjacent monster will attack by 5%.
• Failure mastery. For every skill level, reduces the amount of lost exp when dying by 20%. (20% on the existing exp loss amount, not 20 unit percent). 5 levels will remove all exp loss when dying.
• Magic finder. Increases the drop chance on non-ordinary items by 100% for every skill level.

The functionality of these are all implemented now. Next thing to do is add GUIs to display the current level of each skill on the player stats page, and a GUI to allow the player to select skills when levelling up.

Input is welcome

Sounds awesome. This would not only add a lot of fun, but generally balance the game as a whole. Especially for beginners having a tough time beating some of the dungeons. Hit hard, bark skin, and combat speed seems to be powerful, so I could see a level restriction on them. As it stands most monster cannot attack for more than 10 damage(unless critical) so 10 points in barkskin would basically render a lvl 30 invulnerable to everything but critical hits.

Looking forward to the skill system!!!

I do have a question about how this would work for existing players after the update. For example would a level 30 player begin with 10 free points to apply, or would everyone start from scratch with 0?

Add in a skill called "toll warp" which when used costs x amount of gold or exp to warp to the last used bed, and subsequent levels of the skill reduce the cost. Also making it required to be x level before you have access to it would balance it out.

Another would be "counter-attack" which has x% to deal y% of the enemies own attack back on them. Each subsequent level increases the chance of occurrence. Also could implement the existing actors own crit chance into he formula to more or less give you a free hit. Also restricting this skill to be acquirable at a certain level or require a set number of skill points in a different skill, such as dodge.


Thus far I like the idea of your skill system, and tbh it would be a decent idea to structure it so that level one of skill A can be gotten at say level 10, but level 2 of that skill cannot be gotten till say level 18, to prevent someone from making out said skill before moving onto something else, thus negating over powering a character early on. Also the benefit of giving existing characters points for levels already gained would prevent people from being forced to choose between continuing a current character or starting new just to gain said un-acquired points for skills.

kendraso wrote:Add in a skill called "toll warp" which when used costs x amount of gold or exp to warp to the last used bed, and subsequent levels of the skill reduce the cost. Also making it required to be x level before you have access to it would balance it out.

Another would be "counter-attack" which has x% to deal y% of the enemies own attack back on them. Each subsequent level increases the chance of occurrence. Also could implement the existing actors own crit chance into he formula to more or less give you a free hit. Also restricting this skill to be acquirable at a certain level or require a set number of skill points in a different skill, such as dodge.


Thus far I like the idea of your skill system, and tbh it would be a decent idea to structure it so that level one of skill A can be gotten at say level 10, but level 2 of that skill cannot be gotten till say level 18, to prevent someone from making out said skill before moving onto something else, thus negating over powering a character early on. Also the benefit of giving existing characters points for levels already gained would prevent people from being forced to choose between continuing a current character or starting new just to gain said un-acquired points for skills.

level restrictions would be nessary.

Awesome. I was going to make a post about adding skills to the game, but I see you've beaten me to it! I am going to go through them based on a level-by-level bonus. That way it'll test their benefit. Also, is there a cap to these bonuses, like Maximum of 3 points per skill? This is important, IMHO.

oskarwiksten wrote:Weapon accuracy. Increases AC by 12 for each skill level.

12 AC every 3 levels, means putting a point here is worth less than 5 AC per level (12 < 15). However, these skills are basically a "free" level-up. So where does 12 line up? It's hard to say, until we compare it to the others.

oskarwiksten wrote:Hard hit. Increases min and max damage by 2 for each skill level.

Awesome benefit, but it's basically +2 damage, therefore equal to 2 levels every 3 levels, so it's not better than adding damage per level, but again, it's "free". Compared to above ability, this is less of a boost as it's exactly 2 levels and weapon accuracy is like 2.5 levels worth. Still need to compare it to other skills.

oskarwiksten wrote:Merchant. For every skill level, decreases the buying and selling gold penalty by 5 unit percent. (3 levels will make buying price=selling price)

I assume that the "3 levels ..." on skills means 3 would be a max per skill? This is a unique ability, and is basically awesome. Not really much to compare. It's hard to say people would get 3 points here unless there were basically no other skill points less. At least, it's less important until the items get overhauled.

oskarwiksten wrote:Dodge. Increases BC by 9 for each skill level.

This ability is still less than getting 3 actual levels, but for sake of asking, why is it not 12 like the AC boost one? Still hard to say if this is too much or not enough based on the "free" skill. Personally, the AC and BC boost skills should go away since you

oskarwiksten wrote:Bark skin. Increases damage resistance by 1 for each skill level.

This one is pretty good, but I don't know how to compare it because DR only appears on some equipment.

oskarwiksten wrote:More criticals. Increases critical chance by 20% for each skill level. (20% increase on existing crit.chance, not 20 unit percent)

So it's not 20% per point, just 20% more on top of the previous one. So, this will not actually give your character the ability to critical, right? (as 0% multiplied by any number would zero). So, if you have a 20% chance, then adding "20%" more via skill point would make it 24%?

oskarwiksten wrote:Better criticals. Increases critical multiplier by 50% for each skill level. (50% increase on the existing crit.mult.)

So, it's basically a 0.5 increase? That's good, and not overpowered. Will be worth it. question: Will this give the ability to critical to a character if you use this?

oskarwiksten wrote:Combat speed. Increases max AP by 1 for each skill level. Might be overpowered?

I think this could be overpowered, but that's my opinion. I think adding AP should be a very unique option for the game, and these free skills would be too good for getting a free AP point.

oskarwiksten wrote:Golddigger. Increases chance of finding gold in monster drops by 30%, and increases quantity of gold drops by 50% for each skill level. (up to the maximum amount that the monster drops)

This is good, since you can't get more gold than what it could normally drop. So, can't over inflate the game with gold.

oskarwiksten wrote:Quick learner. Increases amount of exp given by defeating monsters by 10% for each skill level.

Good ability, but I think 10% is a lot. This ability should probably be 3% or 5% at best per skill point. Otherwise, after just 10 levels you could have 30% extra EXP per kill, and just start powering through the game simply 30% faster... and if you take just current characters that play, and just used your skills here, then every level 30 character (normal for starting/doing/finishing BWM currently) could possibly have 100% extra EXP boost, doubling the EXP gain and therefore would double faster... just powering through levels. So, definite look at...

oskarwiksten wrote:Cleave. Gives +10AP on every kill.

No comment, as this is an awesome skills. Basically what I mentioned in another thread. However, to make it scale, what about like +3 AP per point? Otherwise, awesome skill.

oskarwiksten wrote:Corpse eater. Gives +1HP on every kill per skill level.

Awesome skill, and not really much to say it's weak or overpowered. Just a good boost, and +1 HP is perfect (2+ HP each would be too much).

oskarwiksten wrote:Increased fortitude. Raises max HP by 1 per skill level on every subsequent level up. (not retroactively)

I'm confused about this one. Does this basically count as adding 1 HP when you put a point in it, or does it add 1 HP every time you level up?

oskarwiksten wrote:Evasion. For every skill level, reduces both the chance of failed flee attempts by 5% and the chance that a adjacent monster will attack by 5%.

Awesome ability, and can come in handy.

oskarwiksten wrote:Failure mastery. For every skill level, reduces the amount of lost exp when dying by 20%. (20% on the existing exp loss amount, not 20 unit percent). 5 levels will remove all exp loss when dying.

Sweet! All good here.

oskarwiksten wrote:Magic finder. Increases the drop chance on non-ordinary items by 100% for every skill level.

Is 100% not huge? Maybe 50%?

Thank you everyone for the input!

I have now implemented the UI for selecting skills, and tweaked the values on them a bit more. At the moment, we are looking at a new skill every 4 levels, starting at level 4. When leveling up to one of the levels that give a skill, you will be given a skillpoint to distribute on any of the skills. Loading older savegames will give you the amount of skillpoints that you should have gotten from levelling up to that level, so you can distribute them however you wish.
qasur, thank you for the excellent input! I'll try to answer each one of your comments:

qasur wrote:12 AC every 3 levels, means putting a point here is worth less than 5 AC per level (12 < 15). However, these skills are basically a "free" level-up. So where does 12 line up? It's hard to say, until we compare it to the others.

qasur wrote:This ability is still less than getting 3 actual levels, but for sake of asking, why is it not 12 like the AC boost one? Still hard to say if this is too much or not enough based on the "free" skill.

I want the skills to be different from the levelup effects. If you want to increase AC or BC, you can still do it on the regular levelup effect, but this gives you an opportunity to boost it further if you want to build such a character. Generally, we have been more restrictive of handing out BC than AC, and the skills should also reflect that. The levels of 12 and 9 for AC and BC might need some adjustment before release though, to make them equally worthwhile compared to other skills.

qasur wrote:Awesome benefit, but it's basically +2 damage, therefore equal to 2 levels every 3 levels, so it's not better than adding damage per level, but again, it's "free". Compared to above ability, this is less of a boost as it's exactly 2 levels and weapon accuracy is like 2.5 levels worth. Still need to compare it to other skills.

Same argument as with AC and BC though, that this is available in the usual levelup effect, and this would be an added bonus to those players that want to build such a character. Might also need adjustment when we start playtesting it though.

qasur wrote:I assume that the "3 levels ..." on skills means 3 would be a max per skill? This is a unique ability, and is basically awesome. Not really much to compare. It's hard to say people would get 3 points here unless there were basically no other skill points less. At least, it's less important until the items get overhauled.

Yes, Merchant now has a max level of 3. Otherwise, it would allow you to sell for more than the buying price, which would cause all sorts of problems hiliarity.

qasur wrote:So it's not 20% per point, just 20% more on top of the previous one. So, this will not actually give your character the ability to critical, right? (as 0% multiplied by any number would zero). So, if you have a 20% chance, then adding "20%" more via skill point would make it 24%?

Correct.

qasur wrote:So, it's basically a 0.5 increase? That's good, and not overpowered. Will be worth it. question: Will this give the ability to critical to a character if you use this?

Nope, you still need a weapon that has some critical chance (and multiplier) in order to cause critical hits.

qasur wrote:I think this could be overpowered, but that's my opinion. I think adding AP should be a very unique option for the game, and these free skills would be too good for getting a free AP point.

I totally agree. AP has the most potential to be overpowered. I have placed a level cap of 2 on this skill now. Should we even lower that to 1? I would really like to implement some sort of requirements for each skill level, so that raising this to, for example 2, would require you to have Evasion level 3 and experience level at least 20 or something like that.

qasur wrote:Good ability, but I think 10% is a lot. This ability should probably be 3% or 5% at best per skill point. Otherwise, after just 10 levels you could have 30% extra EXP per kill, and just start powering through the game simply 30% faster... and if you take just current characters that play, and just used your skills here, then every level 30 character (normal for starting/doing/finishing BWM currently) could possibly have 100% extra EXP boost, doubling the EXP gain and therefore would double faster... just powering through levels. So, definite look at...

Good points. Lowering it to 5%.

qasur wrote:No comment, as this is an awesome skills. Basically what I mentioned in another thread. However, to make it scale, what about like +3 AP per point? Otherwise, awesome skill.

Also a good point, lowering it to 3AP per skill level.

qasur wrote:I'm confused about this one. Does this basically count as adding 1 HP when you put a point in it, or does it add 1 HP every time you level up?

I should add some better description so that it's intuitive. The intention is that once you have, say, level 1 of this skill, the next experience levelups will all raise your max hp by 1. So let's say you pick one level of this this at experience level 3 where your max HP is 30. Then when you level up to exp level 4, your max HP will be raised to 31. Level 5 will raise it to 32 and so on.

qasur wrote:Is 100% not huge? Maybe 50%?

Hm, good point. Lowering it to 50%.

For the skill that changes drop %, make it 50% on the non common drops, but 100% on the legendary/ultra rare drops so people aren't grinding away for an item so much.

As far as the exp is concerned, putting points in it wouldn't be too overpowered @ 10% imo, as you are replacing an actual stat bonus with exp. So actually every point in it will actually weaken your character, when compared to a character that went AC or AD. You may gain levels faster, but at a steep cost. For example, giving up 2 levels worth of AD for each 10%EXP means that you would have to gain 21 levels to BEGIN seeing any return(at 5% it'd be 40 lvls), and the return you DO get, is something you will have gotten anyhow. By putting points in it you may get more exp per kill, but by gimping potential stats, you can't kill as fast either.
Just my opinion.

Rambo wrote:As far as the exp is concerned, putting points in it wouldn't be too overpowered @ 10% imo, as you are replacing an actual stat bonus with exp. So actually every point in it will actually weaken your character, when compared to a character that went AC or AD. You may gain levels faster, but at a steep cost. For example, giving up 2 levels worth of AD for each 10%EXP means that you would have to gain 21 levels to BEGIN seeing any return(at 5% it'd be 40 lvls), and the return you DO get, is something you will have gotten anyhow. By putting points in it you may get more exp per kill, but by gimping potential stats, you can't kill as fast either.
Just my opinion.

From what it looks like, the skill point isn't instead of a level up, its included with every 4th level up, so we wouldn't be sacrificing an AC or AD increase to get one of the skills (unless I read it wrong). I do agree though that 10% isn't OP since the higher level you get, the more points it takes to get to the next level, so it might seem like a lot at the start but when your next level up requires 70k-90k. Since the skill level can only be increased every 4th level up, I think it would be fine but if it ends up at 5%, I'll still use it

I'll probably use that drop chance one if I still don't have any legendary items by then.

Oskar, this is a great idea and will be an awesome addition to the next update and definitely brings even more variety and possibility after the addition of character conditions, this game just keeps getting better!

Sorry, I may have been unclear. I meant, to choose a 10% exp skill over a 12%AC skill, in my eyes is sacrificing the 12%AC in hopes he can grind out levels faster . My point was that even though the exp boost may get you to, say, lvl 40 faster, a lvl35 character that used his skills in AC may actually be stronger(and have a smaler exp table than a lvl 40). 2 skill points in AC compared to 2 skill points in EXP, the guy that chose AC would be the equivalent to 5 lvls higher in combat. For such a long term investment, 5% seems too low.