Rebalancing the item prices - base market cost

[oskarwiksten]

First of all, apologies for such a long post! I tried to condense my words as much as possible

As some of you may have noticed, the shop prices for items are sometimes deviating from each other between different item types with similar stats. Also, some items are severely under- or overpriced compared to their stats. My plan for the shop prices has from the start always been to come up with some clever formula that automatically calculates the base market cost based on item stats. I have just never gotten around to calculating what the formula(s) should be. Now, after some thinking and a lot of tweaking of parameters the last few days, I feel confident enough to present the forumla I have in mind to do this:

All items have these basic stats that we can use for calculating base market cost:

• MaxHP: raises Max HP
• MaxAP: raises Max AP
• MC: Adds a penalty to the Move Cost
• BC: Block Chance
• AC: Attack Chance
• AP: Action Points used for attack cost
• DR: Damage Resistance
• AD: Attack Damage (range from AD_min to AD_max)
• CC: Critical Chance
• CM: Critical Multiplier
• HealHP: Raises current HP (range from HealHP_min to HealHP_max)

In fact, they have a couple of other stats as well, such as the items that cause conditions on the target or heal when hit and such. Let's keep to these stats for now to not complicate things.

The basis for the formula is that for each stat, a "cost" is calculated, which is then summed up with the other stat costs for the item. Thus, the sum of all stat costs makes the base market cost. These stats can be divided into two parts, those stats which affect the player when the item is worn (equipped stats), and stats that are applied when the item is used (such as healing potions).

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[item cost] = [equip stats cost] + [usage costs]

where:
[equip stats cost] = [MaxHP cost] + [MaxAP cost] + [MC cost] + [combat stats cost]

which in turn can be broken down into:
[combat stats cost] = [BC cost] + [AC cost] + [AP cost] + [DR cost] + [AD_min cost] + [AD_max cost] + [CC cost] + [CM cost] 

and also:
[usage costs] = [HealHP costs]

This way by summing the total item cost by taking each stats part independently of the other stats, we can tweak the cost parameters of each stat to make it reflect how "good" the stat is.

Now, for the tricky part. How to weigh these stat costs against each other? And how should, for example, the values for BC scale into the BC cost?

I would like to use an exponential formula for this, to make higher values much more expensive than lower values. The basic formula I have in mind is

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cost(stat) = factor1*stat^exponent + factor2*stat

With this formula, we can tweak the exponential and linear parts separately. Maybe some stat cost should grow more linear at low values and much more exponential at higher values.

For the sake of brevity, I won't go into further detail on the methodology I used to obtain the values for the two factors and the exponent. Anyway, these are the stat costs that I have come up with:

Code: Select all

[BC cost] = 3*BC^2.5 + BC*28
[AC cost] (for positive AC values) = 0.4*AC^2.5
[AC cost] (for negative AC values) = 7*AC^2.7
[AP cost] (for weapons) = 0.2*((10/AP)^8) - 25*AP
[AP cost] (for non-weapons) = -3125*AP
[DR cost] = 1325*DR
[AD_min cost] (for weapons) = 10*AD_min^2.5
[AD_max cost] (for weapons) =  2*AD_max^2.1
[AD_min cost] (for non-weapons) = 10*AD_min^3 + AD_min*80
[AD_max cost] (for non-weapons) =  2*AD_max^3 + AD_max*20
[CC cost] = 2.2*CC^3
[CM cost] = 50*CM^2
[HealHP cost] = 0.1*average(HealHP)^2 + average(HealHP)*3
[MaxHP cost] = 30*MaxHP^1.2 + MaxHP*70
[MaxAP cost] = 50*MaxAP^3 + MaxAP*750
[MC cost] = 10*MC^2 + MC*350

This produces items costs that correspond to this spreadsheet.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... E&hl=en_US

See the columns "New cost" and "base market cost" for new and old values of what the item prices will be.

Color legend: gray rows represent items that should have no cost (quest items, uniques that should not be sellable, items not implemented yet). Red rows represent items that should have hardcoded cost values since they are considered special, they should not be auto calculated.
Red background: stats that will be tweaked for v0.6.10 .

Looking at this spreadsheet, there are some things that stand out:

• The venomous dagger is exceptional with the stats that are in v0.6.9 . It trumps all other weapons in terms of calculated market cost. Given that it is a fairly early drop, this is really backwards. How should we handle this? I propse that we lower the stats on it to AC=16, CC=5, CM=2 , and also that we add a new buyable item to a new merchant with similar stats to the v0.6.9 venomous dagger.
• The quickstrike dagger is currently priced at 512gc, but the new pricing system gives it a price of 3129, due to its combination of low AP usage and fairly high AC. Sounds reasonable and correct to me, it is a very good item for those that have built up AD when leveling up.
• The steel sword almost doubled in price. We should introduce more buyable items that can be used on the way to reaching that sword.
• The superior iron dagger went from 70gc to 1474gc, mostly due to its relatively high AC.
• Ring of strike and Ring of vicious strike were very overpriced before.

What are your thoughts on this? How does the formulas look to you? Do the new item prices sufficiently reflect how "good" they are?

By having this type of automatic formula, we can be even more expressive in the types of items that we create, and make sure that they are enither under- nor overpowered, just by looking at the item price. This will make for some very interesting items in v0.6.10!

I guess now that you have read this far, this means that you read it all. Thank you for taking the time to read it!

As a side note, for v0.6.10, I would also like to redistribute the items among the merchants to better fit their cities and settlements. Crossglen might not sell the best weapons in the future

/Oskar

[Mino]

Looking through the list, the new price of the bonemeal potion seems contrary to the story behind it, since it is meant to be a cheaper but more effective potion (the reason it was banned) and the ability to buy it only comes from completing the quest. 45 gold might be a bit on the cheap side, but I think it should still be under 100 because its supposed to be more effective and less costly than regular potions (story-wise) so it shouldn't be the same price as the large healing potion.

The cost for the restore fatigue, speed potion, potion of blind rage, etc. while kind of high right now, seem too low at only 1 gold. For that price, the danger of getting fatigue is pretty much gone, you can buy 1000s of the restore potion and take one after each fight.

Overall, I think your formula works (based on the spread sheet, I didn't check the math or anything) but if possible, some items might have to be priced individually because their stats don't really fit in with the formula.

And of course, I would be delighted to buy a weapon with better stats than the Venomous Dagger
But the people who have had one for so long, might not be happy with its stats being lowered.

[oskarwiksten]

Thanks for the reply Mino.

The items that you mention are all red colored - meaning that they should have hardcoded prices since they are considered special.

[Mino]

Thanks for the reply Mino.

The items that you mention are all red colored - meaning that they should have hardcoded prices since they are considered special.

Oops, I even read that part and then forgot when I was looking at the spreadsheet
In that case, I think it looks good.

[Samuel]

Well done! (where is the thumbs up smiley???)
It makes totally sense.

If we make the quickstrike dagger such expensive, (what is correct IMO) then we should also tweak the AP needed to attack with fists. (to 4 or 5)

IMO meat should be weakened. (do not heal as much (7-10 HP) and therefore be cheaper.)
What I do not like is that healing also gets more expensive for larger amounts.
The best (beside bonemeal) would be to buy cheap heal. Perhaps this should be linear. (Or there should be a limit how much heal potions you can take per minute.)

[oskarwiksten]

Potion potency should correlate exponentially to its price. One very potent potion is more effective in the heat of a fight than two half as potent potions. Weaker potions could be an option outside of battle where you have more time to prepare.

Another thought I have had is to make food only heal over time, and not instantly. Some foods could heal faster than other foods, or have longer durations. Potions however could be more pricey and heal instantly, thus justifying their higher price.

That's just a thought right now, and nothing I would like to include into v0.6.10 at this moment.

[oskarwiksten]

I would also like to adress the following scenario before release:
1) Player plays v0.6.9.
2) Player buys N quickstrike daggers for 512gc each.
3) Player upgrades to v0.6.10
4) Player sells N quickstrike daggers for 3129gc each.
5) Profit!

How could we handle that case gracefully?

[Samuel]

Read it again. Have some more points. It's still very good.

But the people who have had one for so long, might not be happy with its stats being lowered.

IMO its the best thing we can do. See the latest discussions.

One very potent potion is more effective in the heat of a fight than two half as potent potions. Weaker potions could be an option outside of battle where you have more time to prepare.

Thats a good point, but IMO we should restrict / weaken the possibility to heal outside of combat. (I have no idea how.)

Profit!

I instantly thought of something like this. (but I thought I would not talk about it so perhaps only a few players would do so.)
a) Reject loading the savegame with a message box: cheater!!!
b) Lower the effect of the item so that the amount of money is almost equal, and then include a new item with the original stats. (as you want to do with the dagger.)
c) Recalculate the current gold amount: C_gold = gold + old_item_prices - new_item_prices
d) tell the players not to do, otherwise you would not add any further content

I really would like if you would place 2 very good items to the shop in prim and BWM. (one to each shop) I would like this "decision-items".

Some non-red items have a cost of 1. (due to negative stats)
IMO they should be manually adjusted to 10-100 gold.

• Wolfpack's animal hide
• Broken wooden buckler
• Woodcutter axe
• Iron axe

[Mino]

I would also like to adress the following scenario before release:
1) Player plays v0.6.9.
2) Player buys N quickstrike daggers for 512gc each.
3) Player upgrades to v0.6.10
4) Player sells N quickstrike daggers for 3129gc each.
5) Profit!

How could we handle that case gracefully?

I will admit to having thought of that too. I think for most of us here, the honor system would work, and with all the grinding we do in between updates, and most of us sticking around BWM its not much more money than we'd already have. For people who don't check these boards, there's no reason to worry because they're unlikely to stock up on those items anyway.

I forgot to ask before, but have you also considered having some objects sell for more depending on where they're from and where you're selling, or would that make it too complicated?

Example:
If you sell wyrm claws in Fallhaven, its more valuable than selling them in Prim or BWM because there's no wyrms on the other side of the passage. Same for minor poisons, potion of speed, induced rage, etc. And also for the blackwater dagger or iron sword (the gear too but I only mention the weapons since they are also drop items) selling more in the other towns. Or the regular Iron Sword selling for more in BWM since it doesn't have the misery.

And in the same vein as the milk being helpful to the guy in the mine, you could have other food/drinks that aren't available in either Prim or BWM sell for more if you take them there.

[kendraso]

Adjusting the stats on the venomous dagger would hurt me a lot due to the fact I've sold all other weapons besides the shadow of the slayer, and as such I feel I'm being punished for holding onto an item that's been useful...given the opportunity to reclaim the other unique items again might lessen that blow, but it will still leave a relatively bad taste in my mouth because I will have to rethink how I play. Changing the stats will probably make me seriously think about completely starting over...or stop playing entirely, not to sound mean or ungrateful, but once you do it to that weapon, what's stopping you from doing it to later weapons? I don't want to continue playing and have my them current weapon readjusted because im still using it long after I first got it. Granted from another point of view, those who no longer have it aren't really affected by the change and therefore most likely don't care if it gets changed, but I personally do, but if you feel the need to, I can't really argue with it and will regardless continue playing....

I guess what I'm getting at is this: I understand why you feel the need to adjust it's stats, but I'm really hoping you don't because I love my character the way it is