Dual wield and daggers

[Antison]

Here's what I actually found as the difference between wielding one QSD and wielding two with the level 2 dual-wield skill:

Attack chance: 178% (single), 204% (dual)
Attack damage: 17-19 (single), 17-19 (dual) (why is it the same?)
Block chance: 14% (single), -6% (dual) (the negative block chance adds up? blech!)

So the only real benefit of the QSD in dual-wield mode is the extra attack chance.


CM

Don't dual wield the QsD; use a shield instead.
The AD is unaffected when dual wielding QsD because provides no AD.

[fiernaq]

Here's what I actually found as the difference between wielding one QSD and wielding two with the level 2 dual-wield skill:

Attack chance: 178% (single), 204% (dual)
Attack damage: 17-19 (single), 17-19 (dual) (why is it the same?)
Block chance: 14% (single), -6% (dual) (the negative block chance adds up? blech!)

So the only real benefit of the QSD in dual-wield mode is the extra attack chance.


CM

Yup. As Antison said, dual-wielding QSDs isn't that great. Dual wielding Blackwater Daggers and throwing on the rest of the BW set actually is pretty good though. So to is dual wielding weapons with status effects. No current weapons really have enough AD to make it worth dual-wielding just for the AD boost. High AC and status effects are what you're looking for.

[rijackson741]

No current weapons really have enough AD to make it worth dual-wielding just for the AD boost.

I don't completely agree with you there. My off-hand weapon is a Balanced steel sword, with damage 3-7. I get 4 hits per round, so (assuming all 4 hits land) I get an additional 12-28 damage per round. That's not great, but it's worth having. If I am wielding DotSP in my main hand, I get more. Assume my ECC is 25% (because that's close to what I actually have, and it makes the math easy ), then 1 in 4 hits the damage, including the extra damage from the off-hand weapon, is multiplied by 3. So then, on average, the extra damage per round is 18-42, which is definitely worth having.

I do agree about the high AC. With 2 levels of dual wield and a BSS in the off-hand I get a 32% boost to AC. With Specialization: Dual wield (which I have) I get an additional 50% of both weapons AC, so a total boost of 58% for DotSP + BSS, or 64% for 2 x BSS.

[Spark]

rijackson741, this is the case of term mishmash.
The same term but with different meanings.
fiernaq talks about direct damage from weapo.

from dual-wield you gain medium AD increase of
2.5 from BSS
and 0.75 from DotSP

This is =3,2 from 3 skills points. Not much, as 3 HH will give more.

And you talk about all additional damage which you gain from dual-wield thanks to increasing ECC and critical multiplier on the weapon. Which is obviously beneficial.

[rijackson741]

I have no idea where you got those numbers from, or what you mean by "direct damage". The AD of the BSS is 3-7. With two levels of dual wield and an ECC of 0 I get that much extra damage per hit. With an ECC of 25% (DotSP in the main hand) I get that much extra damage per hit 3 out of 4 times, and 9-21 extra damage per hit 1 out of 4 times. That's better than 3 HH. And I get a big boost in AC as well, on the order of the increased AC given by 4-5 WA.

Edit: I should add that the above does not take into account one-handed sword proficiency, which increases the AC of the BSS in the off-hand by 30% of the base AC (i.e. by 9%, after rounding down).

[fiernaq]

AD from 1 BSS = 3-7
AD from 2 BSS with 0 points in FSDW = (3-7) + (25% of 3-7) = 3-8
AD from 2 BSS with 3 points in FSDW = (3-7) + (3-7) = 6-14
AD from 1 BSS with 3 points in HH = (3-7) + (6) = 9-13

My point stands. FSDW is not worth it just for the AD gain.

I do stand slightly corrected, however. Turns out the Woodcutter's Hatchet actually does have just barely high enough AD to make FSDW worth it even for just the AD gain. Great. So we have 1 weapon with high enough AD to benefit.

AD from 1 WH = 6-12
AD from 2 WH with 0 points in FSDW = (6-12) + (25% of 6-12) = 7-15
AD from 2 WH with 3 points in FSDW = (6-12) + (6-12) = 12-24
AD from 1 WH with 3 points in HH = (6-12) + (6) = 12-18

[rijackson741]

Unless you have a weapon in the main hand which gives a decent ECC. If your ECC is 25% and your CM is x3, then on average a BSS in the off-hand will do between (3*3+9)/4=4.5 and (3*7+21)/4=10.5 damage per hit. That's an average of 7.5 extra damage per hit, whereas 3 points in HH gives you 6 extra damage.

It seems to me it's a moot point anyway though. In practice, even 6-14 damage from 2 * BSS and dual wield will get you a lot more damage than 9-13 with one BSS and 3 points in HH, because with a BSS in the off-hand dual wield also boosts your AC a lot.

[fiernaq]

Lol, agree to disagree then . I get what you're saying which is that Dual Wield really is worth it. My statement revolved more around the fact that Dual Wield applies % modifiers to base numbers therefore the higher the base numbers are in general the better the skill is in general. AC has numbers upwards of 50 on a single item, BC I don't think even hits 20, while AD almost never gets above 15. Because of this, a skill that modifies AC will most likely be better than a skill that modifies AD. I really can't wait until the combat system gets rebuilt so that stats are all on the character while equipment, skills, and consumables merely apply modifiers. That'll free us up to make some excellent balance changes on everything.

[rijackson741]

agree to disagree then

Well, I didn't say I totally disagreed with you, I only said I didn't totally agree with you .

I really can't wait until the combat system gets rebuilt so that stats are all on the character while equipment, skills, and consumables merely apply modifiers. That'll free us up to make some excellent balance changes on everything.

It'll also free us up to work out all of these costs and benefits all over again. And argue about them all over again

[Spark]

I have no idea where you got those numbers from

Sorry, I think 50% increase in damage is from two-handed specialization.

Unless you have a weapon in the main hand which gives a decent ECC. If your ECC is 25% and your CM is x3, then on average a BSS in the off-hand will do between (3*3+9)/4=4.5 and (3*7+21)/4=10.5 damage per hit. That's an average of 7.5 extra damage per hit, whereas 3 points in HH gives you 6 extra damage.

I would prefer constant 6 AD than 7.5 AD which doesn't work against daemons and undead. But this only my preference.